Second sandhi in Beijing Mandarin? - 未名空间MITBBS历史存档

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Second sandhi in Beijing Mandarin?

Second sandhi in Beijing Mandarin?# AnthroLing - 人类学和语言学

y*o2005-02-21 08:02

1 楼

Mathews Chen gives an exmaple,
tian(55) wen(35) tai(35) -> tian(55) wen(55) tai(35)
Although I don't speak Beijing Mandarin as my native, I speak putonghua very
well, and I studied and worked in Beijing for many years.
tian(55) wen(55) tai(35) would still sound very odd to me.
What do you guys think? daigaku, please?

d*u2005-02-21 08:02

2 楼

In my opinion, it's a possible variation.
The tone sandi of Beijing Mandarin is actually more complicated than people
used to assume. I suppose we can even introduce the concept of mora to analyze
this.
tian55 wen35 tai35->tian5 wen5 tai35
'tian' and 'wen' are monomoraic respectively, and 'tai' is bimoraic.
The 'tian55' spreads its high tone to the next TBU.
By the way, many phonologists have pointed out that 5-scale representation is
redundant for dialects which do not contrast voice feature. 4

【在 y********o 的大作中提到】

: Mathews Chen gives an exmaple,
: tian(55) wen(35) tai(35) -> tian(55) wen(55) tai(35)
: Although I don't speak Beijing Mandarin as my native, I speak putonghua very
: well, and I studied and worked in Beijing for many years.
: tian(55) wen(55) tai(35) would still sound very odd to me.
: What do you guys think? daigaku, please?

o*i2005-02-21 08:02

3 楼

你们在说什么啊
tian wen tai 不就是天文台么呵呵
有北京话和普通话之分么

【在 y********o 的大作中提到】

y*o2005-02-21 08:02

4 楼

OK, could you please explain why you posit that tian and wen are monomoraic,
but tai is bimoraic, daigaku sensei?

analyze
is
very

【在 d*****u 的大作中提到】

: In my opinion, it's a possible variation.
: The tone sandi of Beijing Mandarin is actually more complicated than people
: used to assume. I suppose we can even introduce the concept of mora to analyze
: this.
: tian55 wen35 tai35->tian5 wen5 tai35
: 'tian' and 'wen' are monomoraic respectively, and 'tai' is bimoraic.
: The 'tian55' spreads its high tone to the next TBU.
: By the way, many phonologists have pointed out that 5-scale representation is
: redundant for dialects which do not contrast voice feature. 4

d*u2005-02-21 08:02

5 楼

I've never thought about this issue carefully.
But I suppose for a particular kind of trisyllablic noun, Beijingers tend to
reanalyse it so that it has 4 moras like a bisyllabic noun, which is more
common in modern Chinese.
tian55 wen35
u u u u
|/ |/
σ σ
| |
F F
tian wen tai
u u u u
| | |/
σ σ σ
| / |
|/ |
F F
Note, the foot(F) here does not necessarily coincide with the stress foot
commonly used in phonology. And the mora is a tonal mora, hav

【在 y********o 的大作中提到】

: OK, could you please explain why you posit that tian and wen are monomoraic,
: but tai is bimoraic, daigaku sensei?
:
: analyze
: is
: very

d*u2005-02-21 08:02

6 楼

普通话是人造语言，没有非常明确的语音现实
在音系学里往往只引用“北京话”

very

【在 o**i 的大作中提到】

: 你们在说什么啊
: tian wen tai 不就是天文台么呵呵
: 有北京话和普通话之分么

o*i2005-02-21 08:02

7 楼

哦那普通话天文台和北京话天文台有什么区别么

【在 d*****u 的大作中提到】

: 普通话是人造语言，没有非常明确的语音现实
: 在音系学里往往只引用“北京话”
:
: very

a*a2005-02-21 08:02

8 楼

it doesn't sound odd to me at all.
i'll change " wen" from 35 to 55 in fast speech.
for me it's just about spreading of 55 from tian to
wen and this is very common within the boundary of
prosodic word.

【在 y********o 的大作中提到】

m*e2005-02-21 08:02

9 楼

acoustically speaking, the phrase final or sentence final word is always
lenghtened natually.
I kind of did an experiment with
tian (55) wen (35) tai (35)
and
tian (55) wen (55) tai(35)
Interestingly, I found 'wen' in the second reading actually shows a
rising contour at the tail, not exactly (55)as tian shown by the F0.
Please look at the spectrogram
normal reading: tian (55) wen (35) tai (35)
http://www.pbase.com/image/40434467
fast reading:
http://www.pbase.com/michel_z/image/40434472
How do

【在 a**a 的大作中提到】

: it doesn't sound odd to me at all.
: i'll change " wen" from 35 to 55 in fast speech.
: for me it's just about spreading of 55 from tian to
: wen and this is very common within the boundary of
: prosodic word.

m*e2005-02-21 08:02

10 楼

besides,
in the fast reading of tian (55) wen (55) tai (35)
the durations of tian (55) wen (55) tai (35) are
0.176ms 0.206ms 0.396ms
In the normal reading of tian (55) wen (35) tai(35)
the durations of tian (55) wen (35) tai(35) are
0.346ms 0.347ms 0.477ms
obviously, in the fast reading of tian (55) wen (55) tai (35)
tai(35) has almost as twice as the time of tian(55) and wen (55).

【在 m********e 的大作中提到】

: acoustically speaking, the phrase final or sentence final word is always
: lenghtened natually.
: I kind of did an experiment with
: tian (55) wen (35) tai (35)
: and
: tian (55) wen (55) tai(35)
: Interestingly, I found 'wen' in the second reading actually shows a
: rising contour at the tail, not exactly (55)as tian shown by the F0.
: Please look at the spectrogram
: normal reading: tian (55) wen (35) tai (35)

d*u2005-02-21 08:02

11 楼

Good job. It actually supports my pseudo-mora theory, hehe.

putonghua

【在 m********e 的大作中提到】

: besides,
: in the fast reading of tian (55) wen (55) tai (35)
: the durations of tian (55) wen (55) tai (35) are
: 0.176ms 0.206ms 0.396ms
: In the normal reading of tian (55) wen (35) tai(35)
: the durations of tian (55) wen (35) tai(35) are
: 0.346ms 0.347ms 0.477ms
: obviously, in the fast reading of tian (55) wen (55) tai (35)
: tai(35) has almost as twice as the time of tian(55) and wen (55).
:

d*u2005-02-21 08:02

12 楼

The rising of "wen" in fast speech may be a result of reanalysis. People tend
to raise the pitch a little bit even if the high tone has spreaded
progressively.
Also, it seems the "t" in "tai" is somewhat voiced, or it's a murmur sound.

【在 m********e 的大作中提到】