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这个C#是为了啥？
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这个C#是为了啥？# Programming - 葵花宝典
s*p
1 楼
我爸朋友的女儿最近被诊断出一种叫肺栓生的病，病因不明，只是查出肺部出现大面积
血栓。 目前是做了手术在肺部加了过滤网一样的东西，但是据说只能维持几个礼拜。
国内好像还没有治疗的办法。患者为一年仅15岁的小女孩，她父母万分着急，我在此发
帖是希望网上哪位医生朋友听说这个病，或是相似的病症，了解美国的治疗手段， 非
常感谢！
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k*m
2 楼
需要填写什么材料?有refund?
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a*7
3 楼
Got I140 approved already.. Wondering when to submit I-485? Anyone knows?
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A*e
5 楼
【 以下文字转载自 Heart 讨论区 】
发信人: Allspice (多香果), 信区: Heart
标 题: 感情
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri Jan 20 16:19:59 2012, 美东)
的问题
我从来不为难女人
更不和因此来找麻烦的女人计较
是你的就是你的
用不着来跟我抢
更用不着莫名其妙来挑衅我
和你一点交集都木有！
我只为难男人
没有他的存在
你怎么会找上我
不就是他先认识我
不就是他更在乎我
理智一点吧
有人抢的墙头草男人 我才不稀罕
我只要只要我的
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e*s
6 楼
大军进抵范阳，在城外驻扎下来。纪若尘自居中军大帐，并不打算进入范阳。安禄山也
不在意纪若尘的失礼，他在乎的只是济天下而已。
一行人回到节度使府，安禄山便和颜悦色地让济天下更衣用饭，休息好之后再行寻
找吉穴所在。不过济天下甚会察言观色，一看安禄山甚至将祖宗骨坛都由带了出来，就
知道安禄山心中定是火烧火燎的。于是济天下便不辞辛苦，满面征尘故意不洗，连水都
不喝一口，便即作法寻龙。
安禄山与一众亲信眼巴巴地看着济天下自袖中掏出乾坤盘、勘龙舆、七星灯、阴阳
铃等一应法宝，又自后领中抽出一柄桃木剑，自怀中取几张符纸，穿在桃木剑上燃了，
口中念念有辞，字字清晰，就是听不懂他在说些什么。看这副作派，实是十足十的一个
风水先生。只不过这是民间说书先生口中的风水先生而已，那安禄山哪懂得内中门道？
安禄山平素喜欢听书听戏，心目中的风水先生印象全是自说书先生那里得来，此刻见济
天下作派分毫不差了，心中登时先入为主，便又多信了几分。
场中自然还有那些追不到龙气的修士，见济天下装模作样，煞有介事，身上挂着手
里提着一大堆零零碎碎，都在冷笑不已。道德宗众人自然不会笑在面上，但心中也颇为
莞
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N*m
7 楼
和java长得这么像。是不是MS为了推出自己的跨语言和平台的东西用的？
java是不是处理不了.net的东西，非技术上？
各位牛牛说说C#的前景咋样啊？
书看了1/3，感觉和java类似，不想浪费时间死扣细节，只要找到工作既可；
有java基础的是不是直接搞点c#小项目即可？
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g*j
8 楼
I believe you are talking about pulmonary embolism. The filter is not in
the lung, but in the IVC (inferior vena cava) - a major vein that drains the
lower part of body.
It basically is caused by blood clots formed in vein dislodge into and block
blood vessels in the lung. Any lung tissue with a discontinued blood
supply irreversibly die. There is very few effective treatment at this
point since the damage is already done. What need to be done is to
stabilize the patient, find out the root
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t*g
9 楼
需要你是resident alien,用1040表报税才行,用1040NR一类的表不行.
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k*z
10 楼
搭车同问，网上有消息说是十月份，不过在哪里可以查到官方具体临时排期的信息？
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m*u
11 楼
5555555555555, missed...........
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A*e
12 楼
可以混包子吃么？
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c*t
13 楼
C# is the "JAVA" of M$. If you try to land in a M$ shop, you'd better learn
C#.

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 和java长得这么像。是不是MS为了推出自己的跨语言和平台的东西用的？
: java是不是处理不了.net的东西，非技术上？
: 各位牛牛说说C#的前景咋样啊？
: 书看了1/3，感觉和java类似，不想浪费时间死扣细节，只要找到工作既可；
: 有java基础的是不是直接搞点c#小项目即可？
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d*o
14 楼
到9月份才能知道10月是什么情况。

【在 k**z 的大作中提到】
: 搭车同问，网上有消息说是十月份，不过在哪里可以查到官方具体临时排期的信息？
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d*d
16 楼
pat pat
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s*o
17 楼
you'd better learn JavaScript instead so you can get your job done in a
bathroom :)

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 和java长得这么像。是不是MS为了推出自己的跨语言和平台的东西用的？
: java是不是处理不了.net的东西，非技术上？
: 各位牛牛说说C#的前景咋样啊？
: 书看了1/3，感觉和java类似，不想浪费时间死扣细节，只要找到工作既可；
: 有java基础的是不是直接搞点c#小项目即可？
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N*e
18 楼
visa bulletin 的 EB1 filing date是current，action date才是2010年10月。这说明
随时可以提交吧？
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h*w
19 楼
阿姨你又爽呆了吧，我是排你后面第二个呀，你不要就是我的了。55555555

【在 l*********e 的大作中提到】
: 哇。那个挂6000的我前两天还以为丫的疯了。。
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A*e
20 楼
有包子么？

【在 d********d 的大作中提到】
: pat pat
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N*m
21 楼
hehe, you are right:)

【在 s***o 的大作中提到】
: you'd better learn JavaScript instead so you can get your job done in a
: bathroom :)
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S*y
22 楼
没有确认这个东西？
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l*e
23 楼
承让了。:D
我送去评了一下。68.

【在 h*****w 的大作中提到】
: 阿姨你又爽呆了吧，我是排你后面第二个呀，你不要就是我的了。55555555
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d*d
24 楼
sure, later when I sign in I will give.

【在 A******e 的大作中提到】
: 有包子么？
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b*n
25 楼
there seems to be a lot c# jobs...I keep getting emails from agents
I only used C# for one project.

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 和java长得这么像。是不是MS为了推出自己的跨语言和平台的东西用的？
: java是不是处理不了.net的东西，非技术上？
: 各位牛牛说说C#的前景咋样啊？
: 书看了1/3，感觉和java类似，不想浪费时间死扣细节，只要找到工作既可；
: 有java基础的是不是直接搞点c#小项目即可？
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m*u
27 楼
retail price is around 4.2w RMB

【在 l*********e 的大作中提到】
: 哇。那个挂6000的我前两天还以为丫的疯了。。
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d*r
28 楼
多香果是女人？
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z*e
29 楼
你有java经验为什么去找c#的工作？
后者机会显然不如前者多啊

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 和java长得这么像。是不是MS为了推出自己的跨语言和平台的东西用的？
: java是不是处理不了.net的东西，非技术上？
: 各位牛牛说说C#的前景咋样啊？
: 书看了1/3，感觉和java类似，不想浪费时间死扣细节，只要找到工作既可；
: 有java基础的是不是直接搞点c#小项目即可？
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l*e
31 楼
不过这个6000比国内卖价都贵了。。我怀疑有人瞎搞。。

【在 h*****w 的大作中提到】
: 阿姨你又爽呆了吧，我是排你后面第二个呀，你不要就是我的了。55555555
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d*d
32 楼
美丽的女人

【在 d**********r 的大作中提到】
: 多香果是女人？
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N*m
33 楼
我只是好奇问一下。我的java知识也只是自己随便搞搞的，
不知道离具体找工作的要求还差多少？感觉java太庞杂，所以
仅仅搞了搞j2ee方面的书看了看。
如果c#有市场的话，也准备搞搞c#的皮毛，
毕竟多个语言多条路嘛，呵呵

【在 z****e 的大作中提到】
: 你有java经验为什么去找c#的工作？
: 后者机会显然不如前者多啊
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l*e
34 楼
啊？又涨价了？
前几天不还3万5呢吗。

【在 m*****u 的大作中提到】
: retail price is around 4.2w RMB
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s*q
35 楼
奔？！

【在 d********d 的大作中提到】
: 美丽的女人
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N*m
36 楼
看来又要强化c#了，不知道会不会浪费时间的说

【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: there seems to be a lot c# jobs...I keep getting emails from agents
: I only used C# for one project.
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j*p
37 楼
看到铂金狗了，切不动，皑皑
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d*d
38 楼
那天不是在这里奔过了？你好象还看了啊

【在 s****q 的大作中提到】
: 奔？！
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k*0
39 楼
JAVA/C#两者精其一就可以混饭吃了.

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 我只是好奇问一下。我的java知识也只是自己随便搞搞的，
: 不知道离具体找工作的要求还差多少？感觉java太庞杂，所以
: 仅仅搞了搞j2ee方面的书看了看。
: 如果c#有市场的话，也准备搞搞c#的皮毛，
: 毕竟多个语言多条路嘛，呵呵
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A*g
40 楼
看时间这两个应该是国内的大佬摘了吧。
其实昨天晚上就开始了，毛泽东，90pt猫，87双铂，金章，几乎在同一时间被人打掉。
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s*q
41 楼
记性不太好，而且貌似不够自信,我的意思，非常相信群众的眼神

【在 d********d 的大作中提到】
: 那天不是在这里奔过了？你好象还看了啊
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b*n
42 楼
well, others pointed out Java is popular as well. Especially in large scale
systems. c# are more desktop, ui. If you have Java background, it probably
is easier to sharp your java skills rather than learn something new.

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 看来又要强化c#了，不知道会不会浪费时间的说
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f*f
43 楼
那个狗的证够烂的，014＝您要死。。。。。。。。
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A*e
44 楼
我是男的

【在 d**********r 的大作中提到】
: 多香果是女人？
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N*m
45 楼
是啊，不过要达到精的程度，恐怕要好多年才有可能。
个人感觉JAVA太广，C++太深，都不是省油的灯。

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: JAVA/C#两者精其一就可以混饭吃了.
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A*e
46 楼
奔的别人，笨！

【在 s****q 的大作中提到】
: 记性不太好，而且貌似不够自信,我的意思，非常相信群众的眼神
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N*m
47 楼
right,forget about c sharp and 今天就开始发简历找java工作。

scale

【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: well, others pointed out Java is popular as well. Especially in large scale
: systems. c# are more desktop, ui. If you have Java background, it probably
: is easier to sharp your java skills rather than learn something new.
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d*r
48 楼
是女的，我就不多说了，免得伤人

【在 d********d 的大作中提到】
: 美丽的女人
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a*x
49 楼
c#太乱。一样。

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 是啊，不过要达到精的程度，恐怕要好多年才有可能。
: 个人感觉JAVA太广，C++太深，都不是省油的灯。
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J*1
50 楼
nndnd
这里也有奔? 看来以后要多来.
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s*o
51 楼
not true. C#, or .NET, is just as good as, if not better than, Java for
large scale systems. The only problem is it's from M$...

scale
probably

【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: well, others pointed out Java is popular as well. Especially in large scale
: systems. c# are more desktop, ui. If you have Java background, it probably
: is easier to sharp your java skills rather than learn something new.
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c*e
52 楼
支持

【在 A******e 的大作中提到】
: 可以混包子吃么？
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b*n
53 楼
Because I don't have Java background, so I can't say how many Java jobs
there.
My company uses Java in infrastructure system. My team uses C/C++ though.
From
emails I received, there are many trading software written in C#, mostly UI.
Not too many enterprise system. C# is a good language though. I don't like
the .Net framework though, too many versions..

【在 s***o 的大作中提到】
: not true. C#, or .NET, is just as good as, if not better than, Java for
: large scale systems. The only problem is it's from M$...
:
: scale
: probably
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M*t
54 楼
怎么都到处转来转去的啊

【在 A******e 的大作中提到】
: 【 以下文字转载自 Heart 讨论区 】
: 发信人: Allspice (多香果), 信区: Heart
: 标 题: 感情
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Fri Jan 20 16:19:59 2012, 美东)
: 的问题
: 我从来不为难女人
: 更不和因此来找麻烦的女人计较
: 是你的就是你的
: 用不着来跟我抢
: 更用不着莫名其妙来挑衅我
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g*g
55 楼
It can only run on windows, enough said.

【在 s***o 的大作中提到】
: not true. C#, or .NET, is just as good as, if not better than, Java for
: large scale systems. The only problem is it's from M$...
:
: scale
: probably
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s*o
56 楼
This is probably just the reality. .NET is much younger than Java. If a
company already adopted Java, I see no reason to switch to .NET.
And again, .NET is from M$. Java has a reputation of "write once, debug
everywhere", but with .NET, you don't even have such a debugging chance.
With multi-targeting, you can switch between versions easily and I think
it works very well.

jobs
though.
mostly UI.
like

【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: Because I don't have Java background, so I can't say how many Java jobs
: there.
: My company uses Java in infrastructure system. My team uses C/C++ though.
: From
: emails I received, there are many trading software written in C#, mostly UI.
: Not too many enterprise system. C# is a good language though. I don't like
: the .Net framework though, too many versions..
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s*o
57 楼
shall the goodbug vs neverlearn war start again? hohoho...

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: It can only run on windows, enough said.
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g*g
58 楼
Windows OS isn't often mentioned in the same sentence as "large-scale".
People in the industry will continue to use proven solution, and not
venture on windows scalability, performance, security issues.

【在 s***o 的大作中提到】
: shall the goodbug vs neverlearn war start again? hohoho...
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c*d
59 楼
这有啥好争的，你喜欢哪个用哪个，学习语言一个星期肯定搞定，现在编程的关键都是
熟悉Library
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z*e
60 楼
so?
You need an OS anyway, either Windows or Linux. You choose C# because of u
use Windows, not opposite.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: It can only run on windows, enough said.
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g*g
61 楼
I'll wait until most banks host their enterprise apps on windows server,
or the majority of 100 largest websites hosting on windows server.
Before then, there's nothing to argue here.

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: so?
: You need an OS anyway, either Windows or Linux. You choose C# because of u
: use Windows, not opposite.
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c*e
62 楼
Windows is definitely catching up in this area. We have datacenter running
over 10K machines on windows.With windows server 2008 R2 and hyper-V, the
story could change in a few years.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Windows OS isn't often mentioned in the same sentence as "large-scale".
: People in the industry will continue to use proven solution, and not
: venture on windows scalability, performance, security issues.
avatar
c*e
63 楼
You will never use Windows. People define themsevles by not doing something.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: I'll wait until most banks host their enterprise apps on windows server,
: or the majority of 100 largest websites hosting on windows server.
: Before then, there's nothing to argue here.
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b*n
64 楼
mono?

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: It can only run on windows, enough said.
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k*0
65 楼
Not true.
.net framework is platform independent.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: It can only run on windows, enough said.
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N*m
66 楼
advanced c#上说这个是未来目标，好像目前还做不到，

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: Not true.
: .net framework is platform independent.
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g*g
67 楼
It's techinically platform independent, and practically windows only.
There are patent issues M$ can hunt you down any time. Probably fine
for a desktop app with Mono, but you won't use it for the next Facebook
or anything like that.

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: Not true.
: .net framework is platform independent.
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g*g
68 楼
I am not stuborn, but I have to question windows server's stability
when I receive critical update notice for my windows desktop every other
week.
Granted server may be different, but still.

【在 c****e 的大作中提到】
: Windows is definitely catching up in this area. We have datacenter running
: over 10K machines on windows.With windows server 2008 R2 and hyper-V, the
: story could change in a few years.
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N*m
69 楼
你们这个现在有演变成操作系统之争的趋势

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: I am not stuborn, but I have to question windows server's stability
: when I receive critical update notice for my windows desktop every other
: week.
: Granted server may be different, but still.
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z*e
70 楼
简单说你的意思就是跟风？
难道你在design东西的时候，你的主要理由是因为all the banks are using blah
blah blah, so we should use blah blah blah?
再说这世界又不是所有人都是为银行工作或者除了top 100 websites之外就没别的网站
了。

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: I'll wait until most banks host their enterprise apps on windows server,
: or the majority of 100 largest websites hosting on windows server.
: Before then, there's nothing to argue here.
avatar
z*e
71 楼
C#设计的时候，绝对是受了java的影响很大，这是肯定的，但是它的出现并不是为了跟
java对抗，而是为了方便windows开发（解决以前COM开发的麻烦），这一点，在
essential .NET的开篇说得很清楚。
微软从来没打算过cross-platform的产品，一切产品都是为了让windows更好，而不是
去补充其他OS.
至于为什么跟java长得像．．．我还可以说java跟C++长得像呢。

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 和java长得这么像。是不是MS为了推出自己的跨语言和平台的东西用的？
: java是不是处理不了.net的东西，非技术上？
: 各位牛牛说说C#的前景咋样啊？
: 书看了1/3，感觉和java类似，不想浪费时间死扣细节，只要找到工作既可；
: 有java基础的是不是直接搞点c#小项目即可？
avatar
s*o
72 楼
Is mono good enough for real world applications?
I am a little disappointed for the progress of moonlight though

【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: mono?
avatar
t*t
73 楼
跟风从根本上来说, 并没有什么错, 好比你买东西要买用的人多的, 要买review好的.
用的人多的, 不一定就是最好的, 但是一定不是最差的.
PS: I have no opinion on java vs c#, or windows vs unix.

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: 简单说你的意思就是跟风？
: 难道你在design东西的时候，你的主要理由是因为all the banks are using blah
: blah blah, so we should use blah blah blah?
: 再说这世界又不是所有人都是为银行工作或者除了top 100 websites之外就没别的网站
: 了。
avatar
g*g
74 楼
I only care about jobs, but the customers certainly want proven
solution.

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: 简单说你的意思就是跟风？
: 难道你在design东西的时候，你的主要理由是因为all the banks are using blah
: blah blah, so we should use blah blah blah?
: 再说这世界又不是所有人都是为银行工作或者除了top 100 websites之外就没别的网站
: 了。
avatar
g*g
75 楼
It's not that different between Java and .net platform.
.net is probably simpler, java is more flexible, has lots of
open source stuff, and doesn't have vendor lock-in.

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 你们这个现在有演变成操作系统之争的趋势
avatar
b*n
76 楼
yes, it is good enough for real world applications.

【在 s***o 的大作中提到】
: Is mono good enough for real world applications?
: I am a little disappointed for the progress of moonlight though
avatar
g*g
77 楼
Right, look at the wiki.
Should patent issues ever arise, the Mono project's stated strategy for
dealing with them is as follows:[54]
* Work around the patent by using a different implementation technique
that retains the API, but changes the mechanism; if that is not possible,
they would
* Remove the pieces of code that were covered by those patents, and also
* Find prior art that would render the patent useless.
So it really depends what's your real world application, if you ever grab
enough attention, I bet you'll be in trouble.

【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: yes, it is good enough for real world applications.
avatar
b*n
78 楼
I used a few desktop applications on Linux. Patent issues are every where,
can't
worry too much. And the patent problem is with Mono, not the applications..

also

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Right, look at the wiki.
: Should patent issues ever arise, the Mono project's stated strategy for
: dealing with them is as follows:[54]
: * Work around the patent by using a different implementation technique
: that retains the API, but changes the mechanism; if that is not possible,
: they would
: * Remove the pieces of code that were covered by those patents, and also
: * Find prior art that would render the patent useless.
: So it really depends what's your real world application, if you ever grab
: enough attention, I bet you'll be in trouble.
avatar
N*m
79 楼
en, java好就好在open。

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: It's not that different between Java and .net platform.
: .net is probably simpler, java is more flexible, has lots of
: open source stuff, and doesn't have vendor lock-in.
avatar
g*g
80 楼
Imagine Mono was suited and has to remove some API, and whatever app on it
is not in trouble?
It's like pirating M$ software and counting on M$ not acting against it.
It's fine until it's not. I wouldn't do it when I have the alternatives.

【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: I used a few desktop applications on Linux. Patent issues are every where,
: can't
: worry too much. And the patent problem is with Mono, not the applications..
:
: also
avatar
S*I
81 楼
不知道在Oracle手里会不会变出些花样来。

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: en, java好就好在open。
avatar
D*a
82 楼
Whether an OS is stable has nothing to do with how often it gets an update.
Linux desktop gets update very often, too.
In server cases, these will be handled by sysadmin anyways so neither case
will be a hassle.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: I am not stuborn, but I have to question windows server's stability
: when I receive critical update notice for my windows desktop every other
: week.
: Granted server may be different, but still.
avatar
c*t
83 楼
oracle starts to charge enterprises for java, which is called premium.

【在 S**I 的大作中提到】
: 不知道在Oracle手里会不会变出些花样来。
avatar
z*e
84 楼
...
mono是微软跟novell合作的，去sue什么啊。
现在novell被买了，微软也买了部分patent，大概包括了mono的吧。
我觉得你偏见太强了，对那个open崇尚得不得了。

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Imagine Mono was suited and has to remove some API, and whatever app on it
: is not in trouble?
: It's like pirating M$ software and counting on M$ not acting against it.
: It's fine until it's not. I wouldn't do it when I have the alternatives.
avatar
g*g
85 楼
我对open不是崇尚，而是受益者。你要做JEE的，你就知道没有
这些open source没法干活了。
至于微软对mono的态度，谁不知道mono要是真可以取代.net了，
微软这块就要喝西北风了。事实上基于Mono的就没什么出名应用。
事实最大。比如可扩展性，安全性这些东西谁都可以吹得天花乱坠，
不如看看金融界在用啥。

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: ...
: mono是微软跟novell合作的，去sue什么啊。
: 现在novell被买了，微软也买了部分patent，大概包括了mono的吧。
: 我觉得你偏见太强了，对那个open崇尚得不得了。
avatar
z*e
86 楼
mono只是个广告作用吧，以前我有个project就是刚开始非要强调和mono兼容，这样在
windows/linux上都能跑，后来实在不行了，who cares,就不管了。
java本来就是靠open source做大的，当然要强调open source community了，但是这又
不是说不open的就不行。

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: 我对open不是崇尚，而是受益者。你要做JEE的，你就知道没有
: 这些open source没法干活了。
: 至于微软对mono的态度，谁不知道mono要是真可以取代.net了，
: 微软这块就要喝西北风了。事实上基于Mono的就没什么出名应用。
: 事实最大。比如可扩展性，安全性这些东西谁都可以吹得天花乱坠，
: 不如看看金融界在用啥。
avatar
S*k
87 楼
不open当然也能行，前提是做决策的人脑子要清醒，不要没事乱折腾。且不说OS兼容的
问题， 从linq to sql 到entity framework, 从web form 到mvc， 还有最近的
silverlight 事件，无数人就这么被微软牵着鼻子走。如果是open source,哪能被折腾
成这样。
如果重新给我一个机会，额一定选java.如果加一个期限，那就是一万年。

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: mono只是个广告作用吧，以前我有个project就是刚开始非要强调和mono兼容，这样在
: windows/linux上都能跑，后来实在不行了，who cares,就不管了。
: java本来就是靠open source做大的，当然要强调open source community了，但是这又
: 不是说不open的就不行。
avatar
F*a
88 楼
Why do you care C# or Java? They are very easy to start with any way. Within
one week, you can start writing product code with them.
So just put them into your resume, whichever help you get the job wins.That'
s what I did for my jobs, and that was how I learned them :)
However, to be a good developer of either one, you probably need years.

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 和java长得这么像。是不是MS为了推出自己的跨语言和平台的东西用的？
: java是不是处理不了.net的东西，非技术上？
: 各位牛牛说说C#的前景咋样啊？
: 书看了1/3，感觉和java类似，不想浪费时间死扣细节，只要找到工作既可；
: 有java基础的是不是直接搞点c#小项目即可？
avatar
z*e
89 楼
????java从这个framework流行到那个framework更多。
再说你管那么多feature干什么？你能用就用，不能用，守着C# 2.0做东西，也没错。
Silverlight又关C#什么事情了？简而言之，你想说的是，C#应该5年一更新，对吧？

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: 不open当然也能行，前提是做决策的人脑子要清醒，不要没事乱折腾。且不说OS兼容的
: 问题， 从linq to sql 到entity framework, 从web form 到mvc， 还有最近的
: silverlight 事件，无数人就这么被微软牵着鼻子走。如果是open source,哪能被折腾
: 成这样。
: 如果重新给我一个机会，额一定选java.如果加一个期限，那就是一万年。
avatar
g*g
90 楼
从软件工程的角度讲，没有一个公司能长久只做正确决策。
公开的竞争使得架构优胜略汰，愿意开源不愿意开源都不是问题，
开源门槛更低而已。
微软的问题在于利用平台的垄断来击垮对手，这个是很纯粹的
人为妨碍技术竞争，所以在非PC以外的区域不能垄断的地方，没有任何优势。

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: 不open当然也能行，前提是做决策的人脑子要清醒，不要没事乱折腾。且不说OS兼容的
: 问题， 从linq to sql 到entity framework, 从web form 到mvc， 还有最近的
: silverlight 事件，无数人就这么被微软牵着鼻子走。如果是open source,哪能被折腾
: 成这样。
: 如果重新给我一个机会，额一定选java.如果加一个期限，那就是一万年。
avatar
c*e
91 楼
Active patching actually is a good sign, which means there are people
working day and night to make it better. It's not a direct indication of
code quality or system stability.
When we are talking about stability in "large scale", OS itself is not
enough to provide the SLA people want, no matter how good it is. Stability
or say availability is handled by right fault domain setup, running instance
migration, data replication, etc.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: I am not stuborn, but I have to question windows server's stability
: when I receive critical update notice for my windows desktop every other
: week.
: Granted server may be different, but still.
avatar
N*m
92 楼
as you said, either c# or java is easy to start with.
So even you study them for years, how can potential employers
distinguish you from a novice, if you do not have any
real project experience? But may be you are right,
I just worried too much:)

Within
That'

【在 F******a 的大作中提到】
: Why do you care C# or Java? They are very easy to start with any way. Within
: one week, you can start writing product code with them.
: So just put them into your resume, whichever help you get the job wins.That'
: s what I did for my jobs, and that was how I learned them :)
: However, to be a good developer of either one, you probably need years.
avatar
c*t
93 楼
Will that be true? Now Oracle has java, we all can guess what oracle will do

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: 不open当然也能行，前提是做决策的人脑子要清醒，不要没事乱折腾。且不说OS兼容的
: 问题， 从linq to sql 到entity framework, 从web form 到mvc， 还有最近的
: silverlight 事件，无数人就这么被微软牵着鼻子走。如果是open source,哪能被折腾
: 成这样。
: 如果重新给我一个机会，额一定选java.如果加一个期限，那就是一万年。
avatar
k*0
94 楼
我觉得open source才是折腾, 什么都做不完美, 往往只是开头很美.
MS东西虽然多, 可是你是有选择的, 可以不用silverlight,可以不用linq直接用SQL,可
以无视entity framework. 可以不用MVC而继续用FORM.
JAVA/.NET都是工具, 如果从支持上来说自然是MS比较好.

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: 不open当然也能行，前提是做决策的人脑子要清醒，不要没事乱折腾。且不说OS兼容的
: 问题， 从linq to sql 到entity framework, 从web form 到mvc， 还有最近的
: silverlight 事件，无数人就这么被微软牵着鼻子走。如果是open source,哪能被折腾
: 成这样。
: 如果重新给我一个机会，额一定选java.如果加一个期限，那就是一万年。
avatar
k*0
95 楼
开源服务器OS FREE, 是唯一的优势.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: 从软件工程的角度讲，没有一个公司能长久只做正确决策。
: 公开的竞争使得架构优胜略汰，愿意开源不愿意开源都不是问题，
: 开源门槛更低而已。
: 微软的问题在于利用平台的垄断来击垮对手，这个是很纯粹的
: 人为妨碍技术竞争，所以在非PC以外的区域不能垄断的地方，没有任何优势。
avatar
k*0
96 楼
开头都很简单, 要精通还真得靠积累.

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: as you said, either c# or java is easy to start with.
: So even you study them for years, how can potential employers
: distinguish you from a novice, if you do not have any
: real project experience? But may be you are right,
: I just worried too much:)
:
: Within
: That'
avatar
s*o
97 楼
agree

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得open source才是折腾, 什么都做不完美, 往往只是开头很美.
: MS东西虽然多, 可是你是有选择的, 可以不用silverlight,可以不用linq直接用SQL,可
: 以无视entity framework. 可以不用MVC而继续用FORM.
: JAVA/.NET都是工具, 如果从支持上来说自然是MS比较好.
avatar
S*k
98 楼
一个大project,已经开发过半,ms 说那个啥啥俺们以后不支持鸟.open source能有这个
折腾法吗?

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得open source才是折腾, 什么都做不完美, 往往只是开头很美.
: MS东西虽然多, 可是你是有选择的, 可以不用silverlight,可以不用linq直接用SQL,可
: 以无视entity framework. 可以不用MVC而继续用FORM.
: JAVA/.NET都是工具, 如果从支持上来说自然是MS比较好.
avatar
S*k
99 楼
你用开源的不晓得. 好好大家都在用的,ms它说不支持就不支持了.根本不是优胜略汰的
问题.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: 从软件工程的角度讲，没有一个公司能长久只做正确决策。
: 公开的竞争使得架构优胜略汰，愿意开源不愿意开源都不是问题，
: 开源门槛更低而已。
: 微软的问题在于利用平台的垄断来击垮对手，这个是很纯粹的
: 人为妨碍技术竞争，所以在非PC以外的区域不能垄断的地方，没有任何优势。
avatar
k*0
100 楼
open source这方面的问题多了去了. 从一开头就说了我们是open source, 有问题正常
, 等以后UPDATE, 最后有没有戏就是另一回事.
打个比方,FOXPRO自从9.0后MS就放弃了, 不代表你没MS支持就不能再用FOXPRO 9.0, 只
是新的技术FOXPRO无法支持.下而且此类产品要放弃都是提前N个月宣布的, 只能说你们
的project leader有问题.

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: 一个大project,已经开发过半,ms 说那个啥啥俺们以后不支持鸟.open source能有这个
: 折腾法吗?
avatar
F*n
101 楼
I am shocked that so many people don't even understand what is "open source"
. That's a proof of MS's damage on people's knowledge and vision.
Since when "open source" == "public or free software"???

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: open source这方面的问题多了去了. 从一开头就说了我们是open source, 有问题正常
: , 等以后UPDATE, 最后有没有戏就是另一回事.
: 打个比方,FOXPRO自从9.0后MS就放弃了, 不代表你没MS支持就不能再用FOXPRO 9.0, 只
: 是新的技术FOXPRO无法支持.下而且此类产品要放弃都是提前N个月宣布的, 只能说你们
: 的project leader有问题.
avatar
k*0
102 楼
有些FREE,有些要钱. 有些FREE但不OPEN, 有些打着OPEN的旗帜却又不是真正的OPEN
SOURCE. 就是这么回事. 你真的搞清楚了么?

source"

【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: I am shocked that so many people don't even understand what is "open source"
: . That's a proof of MS's damage on people's knowledge and vision.
: Since when "open source" == "public or free software"???
avatar
s*o
103 楼
Are you still mad on that silly Muglia for his comments on Silverlight?
The SL firestart is live today and you can watch it online, this may cheer
you up a little. :)

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: 一个大project,已经开发过半,ms 说那个啥啥俺们以后不支持鸟.open source能有这个
: 折腾法吗?
avatar
F*n
104 楼
FREE但不OPEN is not open source
要钱 but open is open source.
It's clear like that.

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 有些FREE,有些要钱. 有些FREE但不OPEN, 有些打着OPEN的旗帜却又不是真正的OPEN
: SOURCE. 就是这么回事. 你真的搞清楚了么?
:
: source"
avatar
k*0
105 楼
how about 自称 open, 又不是totally open?

【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: FREE但不OPEN is not open source
: 要钱 but open is open source.
: It's clear like that.
avatar
S*k
106 楼
N = ?
一个project的周期从design到结束 = ?

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: open source这方面的问题多了去了. 从一开头就说了我们是open source, 有问题正常
: , 等以后UPDATE, 最后有没有戏就是另一回事.
: 打个比方,FOXPRO自从9.0后MS就放弃了, 不代表你没MS支持就不能再用FOXPRO 9.0, 只
: 是新的技术FOXPRO无法支持.下而且此类产品要放弃都是提前N个月宣布的, 只能说你们
: 的project leader有问题.
avatar
S*k
107 楼
没法不mad, ms这两年来已经毁了我两个projects了.
问题是ms的这种动向在我们公司被人利用来搞政治斗争.不是单纯的技术问题.

【在 s***o 的大作中提到】
: Are you still mad on that silly Muglia for his comments on Silverlight?
: The SL firestart is live today and you can watch it online, this may cheer
: you up a little. :)
avatar
g*g
108 楼
It's not about open source or not. As I said, open or not is
just a strategy. As the customers are developers, some of them
are capable to identify problem and contribute a fix when the
source is open. This helps the productivity and reduces the
maintenance cost. You can still sell license, service, consulting,
education etc. when you open source. Now I am not saying every
company should open their source, it's up to them. But open source
does reduce cost and attract more users in the long run.
M$ is evil in the way that it doesn't count on better technology to
beat you, it counts on OS monoply to beat you. Of course in many
cases it backfires too.
avatar
D*a
109 楼
感觉jobmarket里面，C#没有java方向激烈

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: as you said, either c# or java is easy to start with.
: So even you study them for years, how can potential employers
: distinguish you from a novice, if you do not have any
: real project experience? But may be you are right,
: I just worried too much:)
:
: Within
: That'
avatar
D*a
110 楼
open source很多太监project的

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: 一个大project,已经开发过半,ms 说那个啥啥俺们以后不支持鸟.open source能有这个
: 折腾法吗?
avatar
N*n
111 楼

What makes you think Java world is better? They are developing JavaFX to
compete with Silverlight, and it has gone nowhere despite being 'open'.
The whole 'open' thing is just another liberal socialist propaganda bull
sh*t, a hoax. Openness ain't no magically guarantee you a good product.

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: 一个大project,已经开发过半,ms 说那个啥啥俺们以后不支持鸟.open source能有这个
: 折腾法吗?
avatar
S*k
112 楼
微软不厚道，Java world is dark too.
听说JS就要成东方不败， 一统江湖鸟。
还听说linq query才是九阴真经第九层。
让额仔细想想，是不是应该回额地高老庄种地。

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: What makes you think Java world is better? They are developing JavaFX to
: compete with Silverlight, and it has gone nowhere despite being 'open'.
: The whole 'open' thing is just another liberal socialist propaganda bull
: sh*t, a hoax. Openness ain't no magically guarantee you a good product.
avatar
k*0
113 楼
普遍来说 N > 10个月.
一个PROJECT如果用成熟的技术, 那么一开头就应该已经知道自己要用那些TOOLS已及那
些FUNCTION. 一个工具就算MS不再SUPPORT, 它本来的FUNCTION还是一样可以用, 有什
么问题吗?
就像visual Studio 6.0/ VB 4/ FOXPRO 6/ Dos 6.2, MS不再出service pack了, 可是
你现在还是一样用.

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: N = ?
: 一个project的周期从design到结束 = ?
avatar
z*e
114 楼
"As the customers are developers"
这就点明了为啥open source不会是主流，因为主流customer都不会是developer.
至于什么Monoply...切，难道微软要为linux开发点什么才行？当然要充分利用windows
，不然简直是发傻了。

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: It's not about open source or not. As I said, open or not is
: just a strategy. As the customers are developers, some of them
: are capable to identify problem and contribute a fix when the
: source is open. This helps the productivity and reduces the
: maintenance cost. You can still sell license, service, consulting,
: education etc. when you open source. Now I am not saying every
: company should open their source, it's up to them. But open source
: does reduce cost and attract more users in the long run.
: M$ is evil in the way that it doesn't count on better technology to
: beat you, it counts on OS monoply to beat you. Of course in many
avatar
t*y
115 楼
同意，任何技术和你开发的系统都有根新换代的问题。
从支持的角度，恐怕比MS做得更好的不多.一个assume有就支持,一个assume没有支持有
问题自己
解决,或好心人解决.不能这么比的.
对楼主说其实真的没什么太大差别.senior的人注重经验,设计,沟通,管理反面的能力.
entry level position语言问题不是priority.

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: open source这方面的问题多了去了. 从一开头就说了我们是open source, 有问题正常
: , 等以后UPDATE, 最后有没有戏就是另一回事.
: 打个比方,FOXPRO自从9.0后MS就放弃了, 不代表你没MS支持就不能再用FOXPRO 9.0, 只
: 是新的技术FOXPRO无法支持.下而且此类产品要放弃都是提前N个月宣布的, 只能说你们
: 的project leader有问题.
avatar
L*n
116 楼
vc6 真不错, 现在我还用

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 普遍来说 N > 10个月.
: 一个PROJECT如果用成熟的技术, 那么一开头就应该已经知道自己要用那些TOOLS已及那
: 些FUNCTION. 一个工具就算MS不再SUPPORT, 它本来的FUNCTION还是一样可以用, 有什
: 么问题吗?
: 就像visual Studio 6.0/ VB 4/ FOXPRO 6/ Dos 6.2, MS不再出service pack了, 可是
: 你现在还是一样用.
avatar
g*g
117 楼
各种语言框架的用户不是developer? 你想啥呢？至于用垄断竞争自然是
双刃剑，技术竞争力就差点。在desktop UI上微软可以近乎一统天下，
在Web, mobile, enterprise上微软就差多了。

windows

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: "As the customers are developers"
: 这就点明了为啥open source不会是主流，因为主流customer都不会是developer.
: 至于什么Monoply...切，难道微软要为linux开发点什么才行？当然要充分利用windows
: ，不然简直是发傻了。
avatar
z*e
118 楼
这已经没在谈java/c#，而是Open source v.s. Close source，linux/Windows.
对于后者，哪来什么语言框架用户，用户是walmart管帐的或者CPA firm用来统计的这
些非IT行业的人，他们会去参与open source？？

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: 各种语言框架的用户不是developer? 你想啥呢？至于用垄断竞争自然是
: 双刃剑，技术竞争力就差点。在desktop UI上微软可以近乎一统天下，
: 在Web, mobile, enterprise上微软就差多了。
:
: windows
avatar
g*g
119 楼
终端用户没有在乎open source / close source。如果谈的是终端用户，
还有讨论source的必要？

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: 这已经没在谈java/c#，而是Open source v.s. Close source，linux/Windows.
: 对于后者，哪来什么语言框架用户，用户是walmart管帐的或者CPA firm用来统计的这
: 些非IT行业的人，他们会去参与open source？？
avatar
k*0
120 楼
终端用户要的是稳定的WORKING SOLUTION, 如果是投行一类的更要快和稳. 他们确实是
不在乎你用什么工具, 要的就是get things done in a timely manner.
用open source的东西会比较省钱(重申我知道open source!= always free. 即便大多
如此), 但是有时候一旦遇到自己难以解决的问题, open source的支持常常不存在或不
完全, 连documentation也常常少得可怜. 而MS不同, 有难以解决的问题你可以直接要
求MS的技术支持,当然不便宜, 用过一次, 问题很快解决了.
作为开发者, 我认为在open source/close source上要自己把握, 能为公司省钱当然好
, 前提是要能及时完成工作.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: 终端用户没有在乎open source / close source。如果谈的是终端用户，
: 还有讨论source的必要？
avatar
g*g
121 楼
这个事情是双刃剑，即便你跟微软买了服务，他也不见得能很快fix，
下个release 3-6个月以后也是常事，或者软件discontinue了。
大的流行的open source framework通常也提供服务，小的维护少的
你还可以自行维护，或者有源码也比较容易找出workaround.

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 终端用户要的是稳定的WORKING SOLUTION, 如果是投行一类的更要快和稳. 他们确实是
: 不在乎你用什么工具, 要的就是get things done in a timely manner.
: 用open source的东西会比较省钱(重申我知道open source!= always free. 即便大多
: 如此), 但是有时候一旦遇到自己难以解决的问题, open source的支持常常不存在或不
: 完全, 连documentation也常常少得可怜. 而MS不同, 有难以解决的问题你可以直接要
: 求MS的技术支持,当然不便宜, 用过一次, 问题很快解决了.
: 作为开发者, 我认为在open source/close source上要自己把握, 能为公司省钱当然好
: , 前提是要能及时完成工作.
avatar
k*0
122 楼
微软的服务不是放service release, 他们是具体到CODING LEVEL, charge by hour,
任何问题他们都会想办法解决,包括已经discontinue的软件, 就我自己的经历来说是很
快的.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: 这个事情是双刃剑，即便你跟微软买了服务，他也不见得能很快fix，
: 下个release 3-6个月以后也是常事，或者软件discontinue了。
: 大的流行的open source framework通常也提供服务，小的维护少的
: 你还可以自行维护，或者有源码也比较容易找出workaround.
avatar
g*g
123 楼
Though I don't have any personal experience, based on the complaint
I heard from the client team in ex-company, it can be expensive
and taking a long time to resolve.
On the other hand, I've been using maybe 100 different open source api,
and I haven't found a case that I can't find a workaround in a few hours.
In worst case senario, you can get rid of it and have an alternative API
that does pretty much the same thing. I doubt you have that luxury in
M$ world.

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 微软的服务不是放service release, 他们是具体到CODING LEVEL, charge by hour,
: 任何问题他们都会想办法解决,包括已经discontinue的软件, 就我自己的经历来说是很
: 快的.
avatar
c*t
124 楼
If the app has been deployed over a few hundred copies, it's nightmare when
worse senario you described happens.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Though I don't have any personal experience, based on the complaint
: I heard from the client team in ex-company, it can be expensive
: and taking a long time to resolve.
: On the other hand, I've been using maybe 100 different open source api,
: and I haven't found a case that I can't find a workaround in a few hours.
: In worst case senario, you can get rid of it and have an alternative API
: that does pretty much the same thing. I doubt you have that luxury in
: M$ world.
avatar
g*g
125 楼
When we talk about server side, most of the time it's a cluster with
several nodes. Even if it's a few hundred copies already, it's not that
bad, no different from update a thick client. I mean, as long as you
have to update the deployment, update one or a few files makes no
difference.

when

【在 c**t 的大作中提到】
: If the app has been deployed over a few hundred copies, it's nightmare when
: worse senario you described happens.
avatar
S*k
126 楼
N > 10 months.
Really?
Could you tell why the first release version of vs 2005 did not support web
application project? And when and why web application was add back to vs
2005 as an additional feature?

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 普遍来说 N > 10个月.
: 一个PROJECT如果用成熟的技术, 那么一开头就应该已经知道自己要用那些TOOLS已及那
: 些FUNCTION. 一个工具就算MS不再SUPPORT, 它本来的FUNCTION还是一样可以用, 有什
: 么问题吗?
: 就像visual Studio 6.0/ VB 4/ FOXPRO 6/ Dos 6.2, MS不再出service pack了, 可是
: 你现在还是一样用.
avatar
S*k
127 楼
By my experience, I spent $300 and got many "Oh, my dear". That's all.
Finally, I got the solution by myself.

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 微软的服务不是放service release, 他们是具体到CODING LEVEL, charge by hour,
: 任何问题他们都会想办法解决,包括已经discontinue的软件, 就我自己的经历来说是很
: 快的.
avatar
z*e
128 楼
这个我最清楚了.
实际上,微软的这种产品service，解决的快慢和质量好坏去取决于以下因素：
1. 客户的重要程度（是SAP/HP/Broadcomm/Intel/etc.还是某个小学的几台电脑问题）
avatar
z*e
129 楼
这看你到底是针对什么来说。
同样是cluster，cluster node之间的authentication，如果你发现采用某种认证方式
就是不行，怎么办？换一种，那当然是workaround，你愿意接受也可以。但是如果是需
求更严格的，不接受workaround的，在技术许可的前提下，微软是可以重新code让你需
要的scenario可以实现的。

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: When we talk about server side, most of the time it's a cluster with
: several nodes. Even if it's a few hundred copies already, it's not that
: bad, no different from update a thick client. I mean, as long as you
: have to update the deployment, update one or a few files makes no
: difference.
:
: when
avatar
g*g
130 楼
Well, I think for non-trivial feature, we probably will investigate
proven solution to begin with. e.g. Authentication between cluster nodes
is well defined feature that have quite a few alternatives in java
world. More often than not, you find 3rd party APIs that can satisfy
your needs, and not count on a vendor to implement your requirement.
Good news is, in java world, your pretty much have any common API somewhere
already, which is not the case for MS. If you are a small company,
that's a good flexibility. You can assemble the APIs and focus on your
own business logic. As there are more than 1 ways to do it, you have
to make some decision and maybe trial on different API. This can be
overwhelming for beginners. But no vendor lockin generally gives you
a cheaper solution, with more features, though it's not available in
one place.

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: 这看你到底是针对什么来说。
: 同样是cluster，cluster node之间的authentication，如果你发现采用某种认证方式
: 就是不行，怎么办？换一种，那当然是workaround，你愿意接受也可以。但是如果是需
: 求更严格的，不接受workaround的，在技术许可的前提下，微软是可以重新code让你需
: 要的scenario可以实现的。
avatar
z*e
131 楼
authentication between cluster nodes是well defined？？
不见得吧，一个failover就有很多实现方法，重新建立security context也是各家都不
同，这又不是光微软在搞，emc/cisco/etc.都有不同产品。

somewhere

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Well, I think for non-trivial feature, we probably will investigate
: proven solution to begin with. e.g. Authentication between cluster nodes
: is well defined feature that have quite a few alternatives in java
: world. More often than not, you find 3rd party APIs that can satisfy
: your needs, and not count on a vendor to implement your requirement.
: Good news is, in java world, your pretty much have any common API somewhere
: already, which is not the case for MS. If you are a small company,
: that's a good flexibility. You can assemble the APIs and focus on your
: own business logic. As there are more than 1 ways to do it, you have
: to make some decision and maybe trial on different API. This can be
avatar
N*n
132 楼

I remember using ACE library before. It's open but the code was loaded
with C++ templates and cost too much time to trace unless you wrote it.
We ran into a bug in their code and tried initially to avoid using their
paid service to hunt it ourselves. The amount of time spent on figuring
out their code was just nor worth it. So we gave up and used their paid
service at the end. We figured paying them once in a while was fine.
They did fix the bug in the next package but also introduced fixes for
other unknown defects. Their resulted code changes threw our system off
again. We had to go through a new round of trouble shooting and basically
became their test mule.
It was a disaster. Having access to source code that is not practically
readable does not help at all. "Open" is simply a hoax in that situation.
We quickly dumped it afterward. Cheap = low quality. Always that way.

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 微软的服务不是放service release, 他们是具体到CODING LEVEL, charge by hour,
: 任何问题他们都会想办法解决,包括已经discontinue的软件, 就我自己的经历来说是很
: 快的.
avatar
k*0
133 楼
信不信在你.
我用.NET开发ASP.NET网站的时候是从2002年开始,那时候还是.net 1.0. 你说的2005没
有网站开发的情况我没遇到过.

web

【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: N > 10 months.
: Really?
: Could you tell why the first release version of vs 2005 did not support web
: application project? And when and why web application was add back to vs
: 2005 as an additional feature?
avatar
k*0
134 楼
不见得, 3rd party APIs are also there for the MS world, 而且数量很多, 不见得
比JAVA少. But there is always a risk to use 3rd party API.

somewhere

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Well, I think for non-trivial feature, we probably will investigate
: proven solution to begin with. e.g. Authentication between cluster nodes
: is well defined feature that have quite a few alternatives in java
: world. More often than not, you find 3rd party APIs that can satisfy
: your needs, and not count on a vendor to implement your requirement.
: Good news is, in java world, your pretty much have any common API somewhere
: already, which is not the case for MS. If you are a small company,
: that's a good flexibility. You can assemble the APIs and focus on your
: own business logic. As there are more than 1 ways to do it, you have
: to make some decision and maybe trial on different API. This can be
avatar
k*0
135 楼
真是个痛苦的经历. 看别人的CODE是很痛苦的一件事, 如果comments特别少那更别说了.
当年组里买了个open source的ATL package, 为了开发省点力. 结果后来出了问题, 又得不到及时support, 自己也没时间去改, 最后成了鸡肋.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: I remember using ACE library before. It's open but the code was loaded
: with C++ templates and cost too much time to trace unless you wrote it.
: We ran into a bug in their code and tried initially to avoid using their
: paid service to hunt it ourselves. The amount of time spent on figuring
: out their code was just nor worth it. So we gave up and used their paid
: service at the end. We figured paying them once in a while was fine.
: They did fix the bug in the next package but also introduced fixes for
: other unknown defects. Their resulted code changes threw our system off
: again. We had to go through a new round of trouble shooting and basically
avatar
g*g
136 楼
You were not smart enough to pick the right open source tool, maybe
there ain't many choices, but again you make a bad judgement to begin
with. You don't step on a dog poo and conclude eveything you step on
is dog poo.
Sure evaluate the tools and pick the right one is more difficult
than let's pay and count on M$ doing the right thing. You can always
blame M$ and not yourself if your project fails, how convenient.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: I remember using ACE library before. It's open but the code was loaded
: with C++ templates and cost too much time to trace unless you wrote it.
: We ran into a bug in their code and tried initially to avoid using their
: paid service to hunt it ourselves. The amount of time spent on figuring
: out their code was just nor worth it. So we gave up and used their paid
: service at the end. We figured paying them once in a while was fine.
: They did fix the bug in the next package but also introduced fixes for
: other unknown defects. Their resulted code changes threw our system off
: again. We had to go through a new round of trouble shooting and basically
avatar
g*g
137 楼
Of course it's way less. And if there's any good one, M$ will do the
copycat and run it out of business. And yes, there's always a risk to use
3rd party API, but it's cheaper, faster and more flexible.

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 不见得, 3rd party APIs are also there for the MS world, 而且数量很多, 不见得
: 比JAVA少. But there is always a risk to use 3rd party API.
:
: somewhere
avatar
N*n
138 楼

Think you deserve to trash the "evil" MS just b/c being able to review a
few toy Java APIs, huh? Funny how Java folks could not even get Generics
straightened out and yet have the nerve to fire smacks in all directions.
So why don't you guys "review" that Generics problem and fix it? What's
blocking you? After all you are "open", "fast", "smart enough", this and
that, blah blah blah...
Well at the end of the day, the "evil", "living on monopoly only" MS has
Generics well sorted out in C#. You guys still have not after how many
years already? And that's just one Generics. This thing could go on and
on if I run a full blown shoot-out between Jave and .Net.
All these proprietary companies would have been out of business if you
FOSS guys could back just half of the smack talking up. Jokes.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: You were not smart enough to pick the right open source tool, maybe
: there ain't many choices, but again you make a bad judgement to begin
: with. You don't step on a dog poo and conclude eveything you step on
: is dog poo.
: Sure evaluate the tools and pick the right one is more difficult
: than let's pay and count on M$ doing the right thing. You can always
: blame M$ and not yourself if your project fails, how convenient.
avatar
z*e
139 楼
嗯,别人说open source不好选择，容易选到错的，你就说别人 not smart enough...
做事情当然convenient第一，这有什么疑问么？我不认为花它一两个星期去figure out
可行性有什么价值。
你举的所有例子，都是以java为正面，ms为反面。Java本来就是靠open source发达的
，可以说java离了open source就什么都不是，你的论据当然成立。但是我倒是很好奇
，既然如此，你怎么不把你现在做的东西拿来open source看看呢？
你的很多说法，已经不能用偏颇来形容了。一个正常的软工，应该清楚open source只
是一种方便的工具，尤其是方便tech startup。问题是，第一，startup搞起来后，就
不会再open了，包括你经常举例的银行，他们要把自己实现交易的java代码open了？？
第二，这世界上软工只是很小一部分人口，这世界上还有开pizza店的脱衣舞的，别人
不会care你什么open不open的solultion.
至于你反微软那些例子就更荒谬。今天假设你用linux开发了一套稳定的银行系统，有
其他用户也要用，想根据你的系统进行改动另外开发，你打算把你的银行系统给open
source了？

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: You were not smart enough to pick the right open source tool, maybe
: there ain't many choices, but again you make a bad judgement to begin
: with. You don't step on a dog poo and conclude eveything you step on
: is dog poo.
: Sure evaluate the tools and pick the right one is more difficult
: than let's pay and count on M$ doing the right thing. You can always
: blame M$ and not yourself if your project fails, how convenient.
avatar
t*t
140 楼
FT, 你看明白他在说什么没有啊.
不说话没人当你哑巴.

out

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: 嗯,别人说open source不好选择，容易选到错的，你就说别人 not smart enough...
: 做事情当然convenient第一，这有什么疑问么？我不认为花它一两个星期去figure out
: 可行性有什么价值。
: 你举的所有例子，都是以java为正面，ms为反面。Java本来就是靠open source发达的
: ，可以说java离了open source就什么都不是，你的论据当然成立。但是我倒是很好奇
: ，既然如此，你怎么不把你现在做的东西拿来open source看看呢？
: 你的很多说法，已经不能用偏颇来形容了。一个正常的软工，应该清楚open source只
: 是一种方便的工具，尤其是方便tech startup。问题是，第一，startup搞起来后，就
: 不会再open了，包括你经常举例的银行，他们要把自己实现交易的java代码open了？？
: 第二，这世界上软工只是很小一部分人口，这世界上还有开pizza店的脱衣舞的，别人
avatar
N*n
141 楼

What he's saying is this: If someone sells you a car that you can drive
right onto road then either the car is bad or you are stupid. But if the
guy sells you a car requiring opening up the hood, reviewing the inside,
making sure the screws are on, valves sealed and tires won't come off,
then it's a better, more flexible and open car.
The FOSS reasoning, I'm telling you, is full of it. LOL.

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: 嗯,别人说open source不好选择，容易选到错的，你就说别人 not smart enough...
: 做事情当然convenient第一，这有什么疑问么？我不认为花它一两个星期去figure out
: 可行性有什么价值。
: 你举的所有例子，都是以java为正面，ms为反面。Java本来就是靠open source发达的
: ，可以说java离了open source就什么都不是，你的论据当然成立。但是我倒是很好奇
: ，既然如此，你怎么不把你现在做的东西拿来open source看看呢？
: 你的很多说法，已经不能用偏颇来形容了。一个正常的软工，应该清楚open source只
: 是一种方便的工具，尤其是方便tech startup。问题是，第一，startup搞起来后，就
: 不会再open了，包括你经常举例的银行，他们要把自己实现交易的java代码open了？？
: 第二，这世界上软工只是很小一部分人口，这世界上还有开pizza店的脱衣舞的，别人
avatar
g*g
142 楼
What's the problem with Java Generics? I don't get that.
Not that I use many advanced features of Generics, but it
works for me. I haven't been looking at C# since its first
release, so I may miss some C# nice improvement on generics,
that's possible. But I have yet to hear any Java developer
complaining Generics blocking him from implementing a feature.
On the other hand, I did hear .net developers complain the
poor backward compatibility of .net.
BTW, I don't think OSS Java APIs are toys when your banking
website, from front to backend is using some of those. It's
hard to find one based on .net. I wouldn't put my hard earned
money in toy products, unlike you.

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: What he's saying is this: If someone sells you a car that you can drive
: right onto road then either the car is bad or you are stupid. But if the
: guy sells you a car requiring opening up the hood, reviewing the inside,
: making sure the screws are on, valves sealed and tires won't come off,
: then it's a better, more flexible and open car.
: The FOSS reasoning, I'm telling you, is full of it. LOL.
avatar
g*g
143 楼

He's not smart enough not because choice is hard, I agree it's hard.
But because he chose a bad one that lead to total failure, and he thought
it's the tool company's fault. I hope I have that luxury at my work.
out
When you are in M$, maybe, most companies value cost efficiency much more
than
convenience. I was asked to scale a system on mysql, because mysql is cheap,
and the customer doesn't plan to pay any helfy license fee on oracle. Should
I turn it down by showing him the nice and convenient features oracle has
for scalability?
I am not writing a framework, I am writing business logic that's not
reusable
by other developers, of course there's no point to open them. For my casual
works, I do make them open.
As I said, open or not open is a choice. It helps your company if your
work is reusable. It helps it to be more popular and competitive. Your stuff
gets critical review and bugs are fixed more quickly. There's a reason IBM
contributes eclipse, or facebook contributes Cassandra.

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: 嗯,别人说open source不好选择，容易选到错的，你就说别人 not smart enough...
: 做事情当然convenient第一，这有什么疑问么？我不认为花它一两个星期去figure out
: 可行性有什么价值。
: 你举的所有例子，都是以java为正面，ms为反面。Java本来就是靠open source发达的
: ，可以说java离了open source就什么都不是，你的论据当然成立。但是我倒是很好奇
: ，既然如此，你怎么不把你现在做的东西拿来open source看看呢？
: 你的很多说法，已经不能用偏颇来形容了。一个正常的软工，应该清楚open source只
: 是一种方便的工具，尤其是方便tech startup。问题是，第一，startup搞起来后，就
: 不会再open了，包括你经常举例的银行，他们要把自己实现交易的java代码open了？？
: 第二，这世界上软工只是很小一部分人口，这世界上还有开pizza店的脱衣舞的，别人
avatar
g*g
144 楼
There are a bunch of cars on the market.
Toyota brainwashes you to believe it's the only car that's good,
you buy it, it speeds when it should brake, and you say, "never mind,
only 20 people die, Toyota will fix it". Actually, let's pay Toyota
to help them find out the problem.
In java world, people don't actually believe any crap like this.
They believe they have multiple brands to choose, they want to see
cars being driven by enough experienced drivers before jumping the
bandwagon, they want to have a personal test drive to see if it fits their
need. It's a lot of more trouble than let's buy Toyota. But guess
who's usually buying a better car with less?

【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: What he's saying is this: If someone sells you a car that you can drive
: right onto road then either the car is bad or you are stupid. But if the
: guy sells you a car requiring opening up the hood, reviewing the inside,
: making sure the screws are on, valves sealed and tires won't come off,
: then it's a better, more flexible and open car.
: The FOSS reasoning, I'm telling you, is full of it. LOL.
avatar
z*e
145 楼
我觉得你很有点混淆概念.你说"in java world, people have mutiple choices..."
首先，java world也就是software的一部分，在不限定java的前提下，同样都是有
multiple choices，并不是说在windows上就没mysql而linux就不能用C#，是不是？只
不过经验会给我们一个最常用最可靠的方案，让我们不必去争论是windows+sql server
性能更好还是linux+oracle更好。
然后你说在java中，人们可以有多种选择去尝试去test去选择真正适合自己的，而不是
依赖广告。这个其实跟前面那位选车的例子差不多，我去买个车，如果我是高手，我当
然可以把从engine到transmission到底盘都研究个透来选择最适合我自己的，我还可以
备一套工具来自己换油自己维护，问题是，有几个人有这样的精力和时间去折腾？照这
样说来，你肯定是用android而不会是iphone或者wp7了，对吧？
拿你前面提到的有人要求的增强mysql的scalability的问题，我不晓得在open source
world里面你想提高mysql的性能应该怎么处理，但是这种要求，在windows经常会碰到
，只要可能的话，重新design来满足需求也是可以的(不必等到下个版本）。

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: There are a bunch of cars on the market.
: Toyota brainwashes you to believe it's the only car that's good,
: you buy it, it speeds when it should brake, and you say, "never mind,
: only 20 people die, Toyota will fix it". Actually, let's pay Toyota
: to help them find out the problem.
: In java world, people don't actually believe any crap like this.
: They believe they have multiple brands to choose, they want to see
: cars being driven by enough experienced drivers before jumping the
: bandwagon, they want to have a personal test drive to see if it fits their
: need. It's a lot of more trouble than let's buy Toyota. But guess
avatar
k*0
146 楼
这个例子不好, 我反而觉得很多人被open source那一套给brainwashed.
做软件开发最重要的是拿来主义, 在符合客户要求前提下用自己觉得最好最可靠的工具
, 而不是限制自己的范围在某个"world"里面.

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: There are a bunch of cars on the market.
: Toyota brainwashes you to believe it's the only car that's good,
: you buy it, it speeds when it should brake, and you say, "never mind,
: only 20 people die, Toyota will fix it". Actually, let's pay Toyota
: to help them find out the problem.
: In java world, people don't actually believe any crap like this.
: They believe they have multiple brands to choose, they want to see
: cars being driven by enough experienced drivers before jumping the
: bandwagon, they want to have a personal test drive to see if it fits their
: need. It's a lot of more trouble than let's buy Toyota. But guess
avatar
d*q
147 楼
our company is now building an infrastructure for real time gps tracking
system based on mono. so far so good....
modern C# is productive and efficient.

【在 b******n 的大作中提到】
: yes, it is good enough for real world applications.
avatar
d*q
148 楼
To be frank, techniques we used to implement our server side include
java, c#, c++ & python.
the restriction has never been a problem with C#. Actually, i use C# daily,
c++ occasionally (for critical part). I don't think these differences can
make life harder.
The most important thing is whether we solve problems within timeframe. no
matter what we use.

【在 k**0 的大作中提到】
: 这个例子不好, 我反而觉得很多人被open source那一套给brainwashed.
: 做软件开发最重要的是拿来主义, 在符合客户要求前提下用自己觉得最好最可靠的工具
: , 而不是限制自己的范围在某个"world"里面.
avatar
g*g
149 楼
你是developer，就相当车里的mechanic，你不折腾谁折腾？

server

【在 z***e 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得你很有点混淆概念.你说"in java world, people have mutiple choices..."
: 首先，java world也就是software的一部分，在不限定java的前提下，同样都是有
: multiple choices，并不是说在windows上就没mysql而linux就不能用C#，是不是？只
: 不过经验会给我们一个最常用最可靠的方案，让我们不必去争论是windows+sql server
: 性能更好还是linux+oracle更好。
: 然后你说在java中，人们可以有多种选择去尝试去test去选择真正适合自己的，而不是
: 依赖广告。这个其实跟前面那位选车的例子差不多，我去买个车，如果我是高手，我当
: 然可以把从engine到transmission到底盘都研究个透来选择最适合我自己的，我还可以
: 备一套工具来自己换油自己维护，问题是，有几个人有这样的精力和时间去折腾？照这
: 样说来，你肯定是用android而不会是iphone或者wp7了，对吧？
avatar
s*l
150 楼
我觉得就是个上手时间和项目经验
找几个java效率的书 从底层了解了解

【在 N***m 的大作中提到】
: 我只是好奇问一下。我的java知识也只是自己随便搞搞的，
: 不知道离具体找工作的要求还差多少？感觉java太庞杂，所以
: 仅仅搞了搞j2ee方面的书看了看。
: 如果c#有市场的话，也准备搞搞c#的皮毛，
: 毕竟多个语言多条路嘛，呵呵
avatar
s*l
151 楼
good or bad, hard to say

【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: It can only run on windows, enough said.
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