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看了肘子和肖传国的微博，越来越觉得
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看了肘子和肖传国的微博，越来越觉得# WaterWorld - 未名水世界
h*s
1 楼
肘子真是和李大师一样，祸国殃民，挑国人内斗而却啥实事都不干的恶棍了；还在媒体上自我标签为“社会学者”，太猥琐了。还害得肖正事干不了。
肘子还有一条转播里，贴着巨恶心和醒目的红字和图画，没有任何具体每个人和每个案例的客观证据和说明，真TMD越来越像FLG了。
http://www.weibo.com/2168561352/y9UzY7IB9
靠，肘子还真是和TMD的中央电视台结合的，很怪异啊。
肖传国让肘子媒体当面对质“残害”病人的事，这个打假斗士好像耸了？肘子不是一贯NB哄哄吗？看来这回自己作假心虚了。
-----
【肖传国微博】
http://www.weibo.com/n/%E8%82%96%E4%BC%A0%E5%9B%BD
本来新医院试营业有许多需要磨合，不宜大张旗鼓的宣传，这几天却“
被高调”，整天就干两件事：接待采访和拒绝采访，全中国大概没有任何医院开张得到如此“重视”吧？
三天不打，你又背后泼粪，@方舟子 你这太监真你妈的没出息。怂货来来来，对质！就用你利用过的“写短信忏悔”的爬行女孩小艳丽，就用你在中央电视台造谣“无效、骗人”的小善善，就用你的医闹领头病人 @靳冰岩 如何？时间、媒体任由你选。欢迎媒体围观
回复@陆嘉德:是啊，我常说：负面宣传也是宣传，一年多以前中央电视台和中国媒体配合方舟子，对我的污蔑诽谤应该是史无前例了，现在真相一步步出来，原来的负面宣传都成了正面，甚至更有力：当大众明白受骗，反弹更高
------
------
【肘子微博】
http://www.weibo.com/fangzhouzi#1331842386186
肖传国称他做了2000例手术，按80%成功率算，我们找到400例无效是正常
的。意思是剩下的病例都是成功的？一，肖宣传的成功病例也被发现无效，未发现一例成功。二，有100多例是同一时段的全部患者，无一成功
------
avatar
D*a
2 楼
RE
avatar
h*s
3 楼
不知道肖的80%数据是否有水, 但基于本人独立的调研来看, 肖氏手术是有实际前景和
价值的东西. 而方肘子2010年和中央电台对其不合理的打压, 很可能是让肖选择糊涂雇
凶的重要因素. 这个很有点"官逼民"的意味.
至于方肘子微薄上挂的FLG式照片, 纯属挑动国人情绪的作假和欺骗性行为. 而且这个
肘子自己无所事事, 还阻碍他人干正事. 和当年老毛自己狗屁不懂, 还借挑动国人整能
干事的人一个性质.
作为旁人看这个肘子, 觉得他不仅是性格偏执, 而是人品恶劣, 心理阴暗啊. 真TMD的
萎缩!

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: RE
avatar
D*a
4 楼
肖的80%数据是否有水,我不清楚,不过美国那个3年期临床试验7人6个拔掉尿管和肖的成
功率也差不多,考虑到这是第一期试验,这个结果已经可以说是Perfect了

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: 不知道肖的80%数据是否有水, 但基于本人独立的调研来看, 肖氏手术是有实际前景和
: 价值的东西. 而方肘子2010年和中央电台对其不合理的打压, 很可能是让肖选择糊涂雇
: 凶的重要因素. 这个很有点"官逼民"的意味.
: 至于方肘子微薄上挂的FLG式照片, 纯属挑动国人情绪的作假和欺骗性行为. 而且这个
: 肘子自己无所事事, 还阻碍他人干正事. 和当年老毛自己狗屁不懂, 还借挑动国人整能
: 干事的人一个性质.
: 作为旁人看这个肘子, 觉得他不仅是性格偏执, 而是人品恶劣, 心理阴暗啊. 真TMD的
: 萎缩!
avatar
s*y
5 楼
肘子是个不要脸报私仇的人。看看他不敢对峙就知道蹊跷了。最恶心的就是肘子这类自
我标榜的虚伪小人，他们的迷惑性很大，有时候做点小善，却实际做着大恶。不少善良的
人也会上当。肘子是绝对祸国殃民的。

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: 肘子真是和李大师一样，祸国殃民，挑国人内斗而却啥实事都不干的恶棍了；还在媒体上自我标签为“社会学者”，太猥琐了。还害得肖正事干不了。
: 肘子还有一条转播里，贴着巨恶心和醒目的红字和图画，没有任何具体每个人和每个案例的客观证据和说明，真TMD越来越像FLG了。
: http://www.weibo.com/2168561352/y9UzY7IB9
: 靠，肘子还真是和TMD的中央电视台结合的，很怪异啊。
: 肖传国让肘子媒体当面对质“残害”病人的事，这个打假斗士好像耸了？肘子不是一贯NB哄哄吗？看来这回自己作假心虚了。
: -----
: 【肖传国微博】
: http://www.weibo.com/n/%E8%82%96%E4%BC%A0%E5%9B%BD
: 本来新医院试营业有许多需要磨合，不宜大张旗鼓的宣传，这几天却“
: 被高调”，整天就干两件事：接待采访和拒绝采访，全中国大概没有任何医院开张得到如此“重视”吧？
avatar
h*s
6 楼
的确是这个道理, 所谓世间最大的恶莫大于"伪善", 尤其是那种宣扬"善"的领头人物的
"伪善", 不加以阻止可能会造成对社会毁灭性的危害.

良的

【在 s***y 的大作中提到】
: 肘子是个不要脸报私仇的人。看看他不敢对峙就知道蹊跷了。最恶心的就是肘子这类自
: 我标榜的虚伪小人，他们的迷惑性很大，有时候做点小善，却实际做着大恶。不少善良的
: 人也会上当。肘子是绝对祸国殃民的。
avatar
D*a
7 楼
方舟子实在是太怂了
avatar
h*s
8 楼
所谓作贼心虚, 其实纵观肘子这么多年干的事, 打的假要么是明显众所周知的, 要么是
抓人小辫子的, 都没有其本人这种以伪善来挑动国人的行为更恶劣.
唐俊就算吹牛漏馅, 有肘子这种以骗人鼓动国人情绪的行为恶劣吗? 其实是小辫子和大
恶的区别, 有天壤之别.
为什么, 很简单, 牛顿这种牛人还有和莱布尼兹关于微积分的作假八卦呢, 物理学牛人
薛定额也曾和泡利还是谁有过关于量力理论文章的WS轶事呢... 照肘子的"公正"标准,
这些人都是对人类社会有百害而无一益的? 不荒谬吗? 所谓人无完人, 乃是客观规律,
坦然承认比装高尚要合理的多. 而装高尚和以此来挑动大家的恶魔情绪比人的天然缺点
要恶劣千倍.

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 方舟子实在是太怂了
avatar
W*s
9 楼
Further experimental studies are still required, notably with animals to
confirm the encouraging results of these initial studies, and to better
understand the mechanism before possible routine patient use.
Xiao hammer!
Bladder reinnervation with creation of a "somato-autonomic" reflex pathway
in spinal cord injured or spina bifida, a new way for treatment?
Nouhaud, F.-X.a , Caremel, R.a , Leroi, A.-M.b , Grise, P.a
a Service d'urologie, CHU de Rouen, 1, rue de Germont, 76000 Rouen, France
b Service de physiologie digestive, Urinaire, respiratoire et sportive, CHU
de Rouen, 1, rue de Germont, 76000 Rouen, France
Abstract
Context: The restoration of physiological micturition is a major objective
for patients presenting a medullary injury, which is not possible with
current treatment. Several recent studies have purposed some techniques for
bladder reinnervation. Their purpose was to begin a voluntary micturition by
the stimulation of an artificial reflex arc created by the anastomosis of a
somatic root with a root innervating the bladder. Materials and methods: We
searched on Medline and Cochrane for articles in English. The keywords used
were: bladder reinnervation, spinal cord injury neurogenic bladder, reflex
pathway for micturition. Results: These studies reported a variable efficacy
as high as 85% of the treated patients. These patients could begin
micturition voluntarily, associated with a significant improvement observed
in their postoperative urodynamic evaluation. In fact, an improvement of the
detrusor external sphincter dyssynergia and/or bladder overactivity was
reported, and the patients presented a better quality of life by the control
of their micturition associated with an improvement in continence with no
need for intermittent catheterisation. However, these results were variable
from one study to the other, and certain results seem difficult to explain
notably concerning the abolition of bladder overactivity and the improvement
of the detrusor external sphincter dyssynergia. Conclusion: Further
experimental studies are still required, notably with animals to confirm the
encouraging results of these initial studies, and to better understand the
mechanism before possible routine patient use. © 2011 Elsevier Masson
SAS.

体上自我标签为“社会学者”，太猥琐了。还害得肖正事干不了。
案例的客观证据和说明，真TMD越来越像FLG了。
贯NB哄哄吗？看来这回自己作假心虚了。
到如此“重视”吧？
就用你利用过的“写短信忏悔”的爬行女孩小艳丽，就用你在中央电视台造谣“无效、
骗人”的小善善，就用你的医闹领头病人 @靳冰岩 如何？时间、媒体任由你选。欢迎
媒体围观

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: 肘子真是和李大师一样，祸国殃民，挑国人内斗而却啥实事都不干的恶棍了；还在媒体上自我标签为“社会学者”，太猥琐了。还害得肖正事干不了。
: 肘子还有一条转播里，贴着巨恶心和醒目的红字和图画，没有任何具体每个人和每个案例的客观证据和说明，真TMD越来越像FLG了。
: http://www.weibo.com/2168561352/y9UzY7IB9
: 靠，肘子还真是和TMD的中央电视台结合的，很怪异啊。
: 肖传国让肘子媒体当面对质“残害”病人的事，这个打假斗士好像耸了？肘子不是一贯NB哄哄吗？看来这回自己作假心虚了。
: -----
: 【肖传国微博】
: http://www.weibo.com/n/%E8%82%96%E4%BC%A0%E5%9B%BD
: 本来新医院试营业有许多需要磨合，不宜大张旗鼓的宣传，这几天却“
: 被高调”，整天就干两件事：接待采访和拒绝采访，全中国大概没有任何医院开张得到如此“重视”吧？
avatar
W*s
10 楼
Further experimental studies are still required, notably with animals to
confirm the encouraging results of these initial studies, and to better
understand the mechanism before possible routine patient use.
Xiao hammer!
Bladder reinnervation with creation of a "somato-autonomic" reflex pathway
in spinal cord injured or spina bifida, a new way for treatment?
Nouhaud, F.-X.a , Caremel, R.a , Leroi, A.-M.b , Grise, P.a
a Service d'urologie, CHU de Rouen, 1, rue de Germont, 76000 Rouen, France
b Service de physiologie digestive, Urinaire, respiratoire et sportive, CHU
de Rouen, 1, rue de Germont, 76000 Rouen, France
Abstract
Context: The restoration of physiological micturition is a major objective
for patients presenting a medullary injury, which is not possible with
current treatment. Several recent studies have purposed some techniques for
bladder reinnervation. Their purpose was to begin a voluntary micturition by
the stimulation of an artificial reflex arc created by the anastomosis of a
somatic root with a root innervating the bladder. Materials and methods: We
searched on Medline and Cochrane for articles in English. The keywords used
were: bladder reinnervation, spinal cord injury neurogenic bladder, reflex
pathway for micturition. Results: These studies reported a variable efficacy
as high as 85% of the treated patients. These patients could begin
micturition voluntarily, associated with a significant improvement observed
in their postoperative urodynamic evaluation. In fact, an improvement of the
detrusor external sphincter dyssynergia and/or bladder overactivity was
reported, and the patients presented a better quality of life by the control
of their micturition associated with an improvement in continence with no
need for intermittent catheterisation. However, these results were variable
from one study to the other, and certain results seem difficult to explain
notably concerning the abolition of bladder overactivity and the improvement
of the detrusor external sphincter dyssynergia. Conclusion: Further
experimental studies are still required, notably with animals to confirm the
encouraging results of these initial studies, and to better understand the
mechanism before possible routine patient use. © 2011 Elsevier Masson
SAS.

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 肖的80%数据是否有水,我不清楚,不过美国那个3年期临床试验7人6个拔掉尿管和肖的成
: 功率也差不多,考虑到这是第一期试验,这个结果已经可以说是Perfect了
avatar
t*6
11 楼
不知道肖的80%数据是否有水, 但基于本人独立的调研来看, 肖氏手术是有实际前景和
价值的东西------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
NIH and other experts in this field have performed investigation too, and
the application of this surgeon is being suspended in U.S now. The data in U
.S. are mainly from in kids and lack proper control group, their brain
function and muscle developed improving the ability to control when they
growing, no significant different has been observed compared to the kids
without the treatment.

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: 不知道肖的80%数据是否有水, 但基于本人独立的调研来看, 肖氏手术是有实际前景和
: 价值的东西. 而方肘子2010年和中央电台对其不合理的打压, 很可能是让肖选择糊涂雇
: 凶的重要因素. 这个很有点"官逼民"的意味.
: 至于方肘子微薄上挂的FLG式照片, 纯属挑动国人情绪的作假和欺骗性行为. 而且这个
: 肘子自己无所事事, 还阻碍他人干正事. 和当年老毛自己狗屁不懂, 还借挑动国人整能
: 干事的人一个性质.
: 作为旁人看这个肘子, 觉得他不仅是性格偏执, 而是人品恶劣, 心理阴暗啊. 真TMD的
: 萎缩!
avatar
h*s
12 楼
很好！学术界的严谨评论和谨慎，比起肘子的煽动和虚假结论要有价值百倍。我们来具
体看看
其一，“In fact, an improvement of the detrusor external sphincter
dyssynergia and/or bladder overactivity was reported, and the patients
presented a better quality of life by the controlof their micturition
associated with an improvement in continence with no need for intermittent
catheterisation.”所以这个手术是有好处和显著效果的，促进了病人的生活质量，而
并非“害人”的（肘子的语录用词），是学术界承认的；更不是肘子所断言的0%有效。
其二, "However, these results were variable from one study to the other, and
certain results seem difficult to explain notably concerning the abolition
of bladder overactivity and the improvement of the detrusor external
sphincter dyssynergia." 所以，学术界对于肖报道的85%不能作结论性的判定，这是
很常见的学术严谨。但也绝非肘子所断言的肖85%是空穴来风的作假。这一结果（85%）
是基于已有的数据，而需要更严格的质疑和检验，是研究里最常见的现象，和作假毫不
相干。
其三，“Conclusion: Further experimental studies are still required, notably
with animals to confirm the encouraging results of these initial studies,
and to better understand the mechanism before possible routine patient use.
”所以肖氏手术需要更多数据来确认，卫生部对肖氏手术暂停是对的；但是如上所讲，
也没有理由认为肖传国作假。反而肘子的打“假”本身就是骗人和煽动性的，毫无客观
公正可言。而肖在深圳也是主要以泌尿科专家来做事的（暂时没有推行“肖氏手术”）
。怎么肘子也是泌尿科专家不成？
这篇文章摘要，我在独立调研过程中读到过。

France
CHU

【在 W*****s 的大作中提到】
: Further experimental studies are still required, notably with animals to
: confirm the encouraging results of these initial studies, and to better
: understand the mechanism before possible routine patient use.
: Xiao hammer!
: Bladder reinnervation with creation of a "somato-autonomic" reflex pathway
: in spinal cord injured or spina bifida, a new way for treatment?
: Nouhaud, F.-X.a , Caremel, R.a , Leroi, A.-M.b , Grise, P.a
: a Service d'urologie, CHU de Rouen, 1, rue de Germont, 76000 Rouen, France
: b Service de physiologie digestive, Urinaire, respiratoire et sportive, CHU
: de Rouen, 1, rue de Germont, 76000 Rouen, France
avatar
h*s
13 楼
That's fine. Please give original references, not just your words.
Normal people and I would appreciate original research references, rather
than interpretating words from you.

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: 不知道肖的80%数据是否有水, 但基于本人独立的调研来看, 肖氏手术是有实际前景和
: 价值的东西------------------------------------------------------------------
: --------------------------------
: NIH and other experts in this field have performed investigation too, and
: the application of this surgeon is being suspended in U.S now. The data in U
: .S. are mainly from in kids and lack proper control group, their brain
: function and muscle developed improving the ability to control when they
: growing, no significant different has been observed compared to the kids
: without the treatment.
avatar
m*x
14 楼
肘子得罪人太多。lz恐怕也是其中之一吧。大家都是只看对自己有利的证据，无视对自
己不利的证据。别冒充公正了。肖锤子都有人替他辩解。别的也不说什么了。
avatar
t*6
15 楼
http://www.europeanurology.com/article/S0302-2838%2810%2900954-
CG Krader. Bladder function not achieved with nerve re-routing
in spinal cord injured patients. Urology Time. Dec 1, 2010.
K Sievert, B Amend, B Winter, A Anastasiadis, A Badke, H Kaps,
M Tatagiba, A Stenzl. Intraspinal nerve re-routing to reestablish
bladder function in spinal cord injured patients. International
Continence Society (ICS) 2008, Oct 20-24 2008.
KD Sievert, B Amend, F Roser, M Tatagiba, A Stenzl. Results of
intraspinal nerve re-routing to re-establish bladder function in
spinal cord injured patients: A single center experience. Eur Urol
Suppl 2010;9(2):330, Published online 25 March 2010.
AUA 2010 - Outcomes of intraspinal nerve re-routing to
re-establish bladder function in spinal cord injured patients: A
single center experience - Session Highlights. UroToday.com, Jun 10
2010.
I really do not think you can read it.
rather
avatar
D*a
16 楼
你这个谎言撒的也太低级了吧
这个肖氏反射弧试验只是临床最初期,一共才做了9个病人,哪里来的Suspended?
已经做临床前期的
William Beaumont Hospital, Michigan，Kennith Peters Group
将要做的
Gerald Tuite, neurological surgeon, MD
Center for Pediatric Neurosurgery & Neuroscience in affiliation with
University of South Florida， Tampa, Florida
已经RECUIT了16个病人
Edwin Smith, M.D.pediatric urologist
Department of Pediatric Urology, Children's Healthcare of Atlanta, Emory
University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA
链接在这里
http://www.neurosurgery.org/xiaoS09.asp
美国这三个组正在协调Protocol，要做Multicenter的临床试验
还有，关于Control的问题你闹得笑话也太大了，全世界没做手术的那几百万甚至上千
万脊柱裂截瘫患者不都是Control？
别贻笑大方了

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: 不知道肖的80%数据是否有水, 但基于本人独立的调研来看, 肖氏手术是有实际前景和
: 价值的东西------------------------------------------------------------------
: --------------------------------
: NIH and other experts in this field have performed investigation too, and
: the application of this surgeon is being suspended in U.S now. The data in U
: .S. are mainly from in kids and lack proper control group, their brain
: function and muscle developed improving the ability to control when they
: growing, no significant different has been observed compared to the kids
: without the treatment.
avatar
h*s
17 楼
当然是因为肘子得罪我了。
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/WaterWorld/1335993.html （“我为什么反对方舟子”）

【在 m**x 的大作中提到】
: 肘子得罪人太多。lz恐怕也是其中之一吧。大家都是只看对自己有利的证据，无视对自
: 己不利的证据。别冒充公正了。肖锤子都有人替他辩解。别的也不说什么了。
avatar
G*s
18 楼
你这个明显撒谎，Tampa, Florida的已经停了，Atlanta,Georgia的也停了，剩下的
Peters的组
目前并没有招病人。

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 你这个谎言撒的也太低级了吧
: 这个肖氏反射弧试验只是临床最初期,一共才做了9个病人,哪里来的Suspended?
: 已经做临床前期的
: William Beaumont Hospital, Michigan，Kennith Peters Group
: 将要做的
: Gerald Tuite, neurological surgeon, MD
: Center for Pediatric Neurosurgery & Neuroscience in affiliation with
: University of South Florida， Tampa, Florida
: 已经RECUIT了16个病人
: Edwin Smith, M.D.pediatric urologist
avatar
t*6
19 楼
This is not academic or official comments, meaningless,just check out with
NIH office.
In the paper there is no control, but other experts beat the paper using
other patients as control as you mentioned

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 你这个谎言撒的也太低级了吧
: 这个肖氏反射弧试验只是临床最初期,一共才做了9个病人,哪里来的Suspended?
: 已经做临床前期的
: William Beaumont Hospital, Michigan，Kennith Peters Group
: 将要做的
: Gerald Tuite, neurological surgeon, MD
: Center for Pediatric Neurosurgery & Neuroscience in affiliation with
: University of South Florida， Tampa, Florida
: 已经RECUIT了16个病人
: Edwin Smith, M.D.pediatric urologist
avatar
W*s
21 楼
Did you ever conduct the experiments using Xiao-hammer's method/procedure?
Survey is always survey. Those data presented by Xiao Hammer is doubtable.
He can show and claim whatever data to support his Career. The hard evidence
is that nobody else can get good results as Xiao hammer claimed. That's why
"These studies reported a variable efficacy as high as 85% of the treated
patients." and "However, these results were variable from one study to the
other, and certain results seem difficult to explain notably concerning the
abolition of bladder overactivity and the improvementof the detrusor
external sphincter dyssynergia. Conclusion: Further experimental studies are
still required, notably with animals to confirm theencouraging results of
these initial studies, and to better understand the mechanism before
possible routine patient use." These for sure slap Xiao Hammer's face.
Xiao Hammer is just an evil.

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: 不知道肖的80%数据是否有水, 但基于本人独立的调研来看, 肖氏手术是有实际前景和
: 价值的东西. 而方肘子2010年和中央电台对其不合理的打压, 很可能是让肖选择糊涂雇
: 凶的重要因素. 这个很有点"官逼民"的意味.
: 至于方肘子微薄上挂的FLG式照片, 纯属挑动国人情绪的作假和欺骗性行为. 而且这个
: 肘子自己无所事事, 还阻碍他人干正事. 和当年老毛自己狗屁不懂, 还借挑动国人整能
: 干事的人一个性质.
: 作为旁人看这个肘子, 觉得他不仅是性格偏执, 而是人品恶劣, 心理阴暗啊. 真TMD的
: 萎缩!
avatar
n*y
22 楼
您摘conclusion之前能不能把results也给摘一下儿？

evidence
why
the
are

【在 W*****s 的大作中提到】
: Did you ever conduct the experiments using Xiao-hammer's method/procedure?
: Survey is always survey. Those data presented by Xiao Hammer is doubtable.
: He can show and claim whatever data to support his Career. The hard evidence
: is that nobody else can get good results as Xiao hammer claimed. That's why
: "These studies reported a variable efficacy as high as 85% of the treated
: patients." and "However, these results were variable from one study to the
: other, and certain results seem difficult to explain notably concerning the
: abolition of bladder overactivity and the improvementof the detrusor
: external sphincter dyssynergia. Conclusion: Further experimental studies are
: still required, notably with animals to confirm theencouraging results of
avatar
h*s
23 楼
Sure I can. Just shut up and wait for now.

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: can you read the references?
avatar
t*6
24 楼
haha, I do not think you can read it

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: Sure I can. Just shut up and wait for now.
avatar
h*s
25 楼
同样的资料， 我已经给你分析过了。
你认定肖是一握，是你的个人观点。
但是肘子把这种个人观点推销给国人，煽动情绪，我看更是一窝。

evidence
why
the
are

【在 W*****s 的大作中提到】
: Did you ever conduct the experiments using Xiao-hammer's method/procedure?
: Survey is always survey. Those data presented by Xiao Hammer is doubtable.
: He can show and claim whatever data to support his Career. The hard evidence
: is that nobody else can get good results as Xiao hammer claimed. That's why
: "These studies reported a variable efficacy as high as 85% of the treated
: patients." and "However, these results were variable from one study to the
: other, and certain results seem difficult to explain notably concerning the
: abolition of bladder overactivity and the improvementof the detrusor
: external sphincter dyssynergia. Conclusion: Further experimental studies are
: still required, notably with animals to confirm theencouraging results of
avatar
n*r
26 楼
sb wumao
avatar
h*s
27 楼
No，I Can't. I can only later when I have time.
U can think a lot of things, just be careful with what are reals and what
are imaginations. When it comes to your imaginations, it's time for you to
take pills.
Regards and yours,
...

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: haha, I do not think you can read it
avatar
t*6
28 楼
Haha
shame on you. dirty words.
Those medical papers are really hard for you, dude.
stupid man, shut up and go eat xiao's shit

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: No，I Can't. I can only later when I have time.
: U can think a lot of things, just be careful with what are reals and what
: are imaginations. When it comes to your imaginations, it's time for you to
: take pills.
: Regards and yours,
: ...
avatar
h*s
29 楼
OK. Let's cut the crap and talk like adults.
------
In your words, "NIH and other experts in this field have performed
investigation too, and the application of this surgeon is being suspended in
U.S now."
By browsing link refs and ref papers you pointed out, obviously there is NOT
so-called fact that "surgery is suspended". The only things that I saw are
that,
(1) "Peters et al suggest that the procedure should be reserved only for
research protocols with rigorous analysis of the risk–benefit ratio."
(2) "The authors’ plea is noteworthy, to continue scientific evaluation of
the risks and the benefits of this procedure before it may be taken
enthusiastically into clinical practice on a broad base."
WTF is “suspension”of this procecdure? In your own imaginations and big
mouth?
-------
“The data in U.S. are mainly from in kids and lack proper control group,
their brain function and muscle developed improving the ability to control
when they
growing, no significant different has been observed compared to the kids
without the treatment.”
The only fact from German group's papers is that, none of 8 patients
achieved voluntary micturition. However, they also pointed out it's a safe
procedure without complications and slight improvement of bowel function and
reduced infection rates. Futher investigations are necessary.
All patients' mean age is 30 years, not any close to "kids" you pointed out
in your words.
Do you have any REAL original refs to the fact that, "no significant
different has been observed compared to the kids without the treatment"? Or,
is it just your words, which normal people would not take seriously.
-------
See? two important statements out of your big mouth sound like lying so far.

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: Haha
: shame on you. dirty words.
: Those medical papers are really hard for you, dude.
: stupid man, shut up and go eat xiao's shit
avatar
D*a
30 楼
别浪费时间了，他们就是撒谎不眨眼的水军

in
NOT
are

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: OK. Let's cut the crap and talk like adults.
: ------
: In your words, "NIH and other experts in this field have performed
: investigation too, and the application of this surgeon is being suspended in
: U.S now."
: By browsing link refs and ref papers you pointed out, obviously there is NOT
: so-called fact that "surgery is suspended". The only things that I saw are
: that,
: (1) "Peters et al suggest that the procedure should be reserved only for
: research protocols with rigorous analysis of the risk–benefit ratio."
avatar
h*s
31 楼
暂时还需要浪费一下时间。稍后再解释为什么。。。哈！

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 别浪费时间了，他们就是撒谎不眨眼的水军
:
: in
: NOT
: are
avatar
h*s
32 楼
你怎么？耸了，和方舟子这两天学的？

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: Haha
: shame on you. dirty words.
: Those medical papers are really hard for you, dude.
: stupid man, shut up and go eat xiao's shit
avatar
D*a
33 楼
前一段时间也是有人造谣说NIH停了肖氏反射弧，当时有人提出和你相同的证据

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: 暂时还需要浪费一下时间。稍后再解释为什么。。。哈！
avatar
h*s
34 楼
就是，NIH的钱主要是搞前沿研究领域的，这个手术显然正在研究的节骨眼上，怎么可
能停呢？

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 前一段时间也是有人造谣说NIH停了肖氏反射弧，当时有人提出和你相同的证据
avatar
t*6
35 楼
poor man, you can not understand those things
1 suspension means in "patients clinicly", not in trial or lab(they
mentioned animals)
2 The data in (U.S.)-------The only fact from (German) group's papers
so poor man, only can read ---description--- not ---discussion--
I guess you can not tell description from discussion, basicly when you
discuss something you will mention the issue first, that does not mean you
agree with it.
haha, sorry for embarasing you

in
NOT
are

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: OK. Let's cut the crap and talk like adults.
: ------
: In your words, "NIH and other experts in this field have performed
: investigation too, and the application of this surgeon is being suspended in
: U.S now."
: By browsing link refs and ref papers you pointed out, obviously there is NOT
: so-called fact that "surgery is suspended". The only things that I saw are
: that,
: (1) "Peters et al suggest that the procedure should be reserved only for
: research protocols with rigorous analysis of the risk–benefit ratio."
avatar
t*6
36 楼
you really do not understand "suspension"
Have you had you driver liscence suspended?
haha
so funny

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: 就是，NIH的钱主要是搞前沿研究领域的，这个手术显然正在研究的节骨眼上，怎么可
: 能停呢？
avatar
t*6
37 楼
just call or email NIH office
haha

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 前一段时间也是有人造谣说NIH停了肖氏反射弧，当时有人提出和你相同的证据
avatar
m*x
38 楼
实际上不管肖的手术有没有效果，方舟子的打假方式和资格是让人怀疑的。
他打别人的时候，就要求别人不问打假人的动机和目的，别人打他假就是报复。
而且打假不是心平气和讲道理，而是“泼粪式”打假。
而且医学问题问题，方舟子的确是没有发言权的，一个从来没学过临床的人没有这个资
格来做判定的。
而且这个不是真假的问题，有病人手术不成功，手术就是假的？
也许有一天，会发现肖的手术是失败的，但还轮不到方舟子找几个医闹来下结论。要等
临床试验做完才能下结论。卫生部在这里应该旗帜鲜明支持肖的试验。行业保护还是需
要的。要真说肖传国的问题，也不是个人的问题，是制度问题。肖的手术肯定是符合卫生部的审批的，否则是不能做的。
avatar
h*s
39 楼
你怎么那么喜欢haha？
别扣了，暂停和停止有什么大区别？你不就是最希望说“停止”吗？告诉你，“
suspend”可以翻译成停止。
但是我不太理解你怎么把自己的驾照给弄萨斯本地的了？你吃的什么药那么厉害腻？

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: you really do not understand "suspension"
: Have you had you driver liscence suspended?
: haha
: so funny
avatar
D*a
40 楼
你哈哈也没用，你口中Suspended的试验，Florida那一组三个外科医生2009年就开始了
，你撒谎屁用没有
美国佛罗里达州的“全儿童医院”的外科医生开始临床试验评估肖氏手术
美国佛罗里达州的全儿童医院 (ACH) 开始了一项临床研究来对一个治疗脊柱裂和脊髓
损伤后神经源性膀胱有着很大成功希望的的外科手术进行评估。
这个开始于3月份由医学伦理委员会通过历时3年的双盲试验将包括脊柱裂或脊髓损伤的
患儿。在8个儿童中有7个患先天性的脊柱裂并正在接受脊髓栓系松解术；有一半的病人
同时进行了肖氏手术并正由全儿童医院的医生进行评估。第8个病人的膀胱功能障碍是
因为在新生儿阶段手术摘除一个脊髓肿瘤造成的。这个患儿只接受了肖氏手术。
肖氏手术是由中国同济医学院的协和医院泌尿科主任肖传国医生发明的。 这个由美国
国立卫生研究院在中美两地资助完成的手术已经在1500个成人和儿童身上实施。儿童泌
尿科医生Yves Homsy 去年在香港举行的儿童控尿专题讨论会上认识了肖教授并对他的
肖氏手术产生了兴趣。随后Homsy医生，儿童神经外科的Gerald Tuite和Luis
Rodriguez医生相继访问了肖教授并在详细了解了他的结果后学习了这个外科手术。这3
个医生一起参与了这个正在全儿童医院进行的临床试验。
肖氏手术涉及到经硬膜内腰-骶神经的重新连接术来提供一个自主控制排尿的新的神经
通路。在完成了皮肤-中枢神经-膀胱重新支配的手术后，病人可以通过剧烈的抓挠大腿
上一个点来完成排尿和排便。手术后神经的愈合和再生需要至少8个月的时间。
有关参与研究的医生详细介绍 (略)：
原文
ACH Surgeons Begin Clinical Trial to Evaluate Xiao Procedure
All Children’s has begun a clinical research trial of a surgical procedure
that holds promise for treating neurogenic bladder in children with spina
bifida or spinal cord injuries.
The three-year, blinded, IRB-approved study will involve children with spina
bifida or spinal cord injuries. It began in mid-March with eight children
who underwent surgery. Seven were spina bifida patients who were already
undergoing surgery for spinal cord detethering; half also underwent the “
Xiao procedure” that All Children’s physicians are evaluating. The eighth
patient, whose bladder dysfunction was a result of surgery during his
infancy to remove a spinal cord tumor, had surgery specifically to undergo
the Xiao procedure.
The Xiao procedure was developed by Chuan-Guo Xiao, M.D., Chairman of the
Department of Urology at Union Hospital, Tongji Medical College, People’s
Republic of China. The Xiao procedure, developed during NIH-funded research
in the U.S. and China, has been performed on some 1,500 adults and children
in the People’s Republic. Pediatric urologist Yves Homsy, M.D. became
interested in the procedure last year after meeting Professor Xiao at an
International Children’s Continence Symposium in Hong Kong.
Dr. Homsy and pediatric neurosurgeons Gerald Tuite, M.D. and Luis Rodriguez,
M.D., subsequently visited Professor Xiao to review his results and learn
the technique. They are working together in the clinical research trial at
ACH.
The Xiao procedure involves an intradural re-routing of lumbar to sacral
nerves to provide a new pathway for voluntary bladder emptying. After the “
skin-CNS-bladder” reinnervation procedure, the bladder and bowels are
activated when the patient vigorously scratches a spot on the thigh.
Following surgery, neurological healing and nerve regeneration take at least
eight months.
About the Physicians
Dr. Yves Homsy, M.D.
Dr. Yves Homsy serves as Clinical Professor of Surgery (Urology) and
Pediatrics at the University of South Florida, and practices as a Pediatric
Urologist at All Children\\\'s Hospital.
Dr. Homsy attained his Medical Degree and completed an internship at Cairo
University in Cairo, Egypt, and followed that with a Residency in General
Surgery at Greek Community Hospital in Cairo. After moving to Canada, Dr.
Homsy then completed another internship at Montreal General Hospital,
followed by Residencies in General Surgery (Sainte Jeanne d\\\'Arc Hospital,
Montreal) and Urology (McGill University Urology Training Programme,
Montreal and Toronto).
His career has included extensive research, teaching, and publishing. Dr.
Homsy practiced and taught at the University of Montreal and McGill
University before joining the University of South Florida and All Children\\
\'s Hospital in 1995.
Dr. Luis Rodriguez
Dr. Luis Felipe Rodriguez practices Pediatric Neurosurgery at All Children\\
\'s Hospital and the University of South Florida. He is Assistant Professor
of Neurosurgery in the Department of Neurological Surgery and Rehabilitation
, University of South Florida School of Medicine.
Upon receiving his medical degree at the University of Michigan, Dr.
Rodruguez stayed on at the University of Michigan for a General Surgery
Internship and Residency in Neurosurgery. Dr. Rodriguez completed his
medical education with a Pediatric Neurosurgery Fellowship at the Primary
Children\\\'s Medical Center, University of Utah Department of Neurosurgery
, in Salt Lake City. Dr. Rodriguez joined the USF faculty in 2005. His
primary neurosurgical focus is on spine issues in children.
Dr. Gerald Tuite, M.D.
After graduating from Medical School at Northwestern University Medical
School in Chicago, Dr. Tuite completed his general surgery internship at
Northwestern University and his Neurosurgery Residency at University of
Michigan. After serving a year as Chief Resident at the University of
Michigan, Dr. Tuite took a Pediatric Neurosurgical and Complex Spinal
Fellowship at Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children in London, England.
Dr. Tuite completed his medical training with a Pediatric Neurosurgery
Fellowship at Texas Children\\\'s Hospital in Houston.
In 2008 Dr. Tuite re-joined the USF Neurosurgery Faculty and All Children\\\
's Hospital Pediatric Neurosurgery program after serving as Director of
Pediatric Neurosurgery at the Medical University of South Carolina. In his
years at the Medical University of South Carolina, Dr. Tuite also served as
Neurosurgery Residency Program and was active in training residents and
fellows.

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: just call or email NIH office
: haha
avatar
t*6
41 楼
you do not live in U.S.?
you use powerword to translate "suspension'?
My god, just wasted my time, you can not read english.

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: 你怎么那么喜欢haha？
: 别扣了，暂停和停止有什么大区别？你不就是最希望说“停止”吗？告诉你，“
: suspend”可以翻译成停止。
: 但是我不太理解你怎么把自己的驾照给弄萨斯本地的了？你吃的什么药那么厉害腻？
avatar
D*a
42 楼
瞧你那烂英文吧
1. in the US
2. you wasted my time
3. can/cannot和able/unable的区别初中生都知道

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: you do not live in U.S.?
: you use powerword to translate "suspension'?
: My god, just wasted my time, you can not read english.
avatar
t*6
43 楼
my god
NIH suspended it last year after the trial began in 2009.
Your guys need check your IQ and english level
my god

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 你哈哈也没用，你口中Suspended的试验，Florida那一组三个外科医生2009年就开始了
: ，你撒谎屁用没有
: 美国佛罗里达州的“全儿童医院”的外科医生开始临床试验评估肖氏手术
: 美国佛罗里达州的全儿童医院 (ACH) 开始了一项临床研究来对一个治疗脊柱裂和脊髓
: 损伤后神经源性膀胱有着很大成功希望的的外科手术进行评估。
: 这个开始于3月份由医学伦理委员会通过历时3年的双盲试验将包括脊柱裂或脊髓损伤的
: 患儿。在8个儿童中有7个患先天性的脊柱裂并正在接受脊髓栓系松解术；有一半的病人
: 同时进行了肖氏手术并正由全儿童医院的医生进行评估。第8个病人的膀胱功能障碍是
: 因为在新生儿阶段手术摘除一个脊髓肿瘤造成的。这个患儿只接受了肖氏手术。
: 肖氏手术是由中国同济医学院的协和医院泌尿科主任肖传国医生发明的。 这个由美国
avatar
W*s
44 楼
Xiao hammer published about 34 papers. Most of them are in Chinese Journals.
And most of them get less than 10 citiations per paper. Some veen has 0
citiation.
How novel and siginificant his work is?
Xiao Hammer, stop! Xiao Hammer, you should use yourself as the animal model
instead of those poor chinese kids/children.

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: That's fine. Please give original references, not just your words.
: Normal people and I would appreciate original research references, rather
: than interpretating words from you.
avatar
t*6
45 楼
My god. you do not know english at all, just like lz.

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 瞧你那烂英文吧
: 1. in the US
: 2. you wasted my time
: 3. can/cannot和able/unable的区别初中生都知道
avatar
D*a
46 楼
NIH SUSPENSION 的链接拿出来看看
连冠词都不会用的人，还讲English Level，算了吧你

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: my god
: NIH suspended it last year after the trial began in 2009.
: Your guys need check your IQ and english level
: my god
avatar
t*6
47 楼
haha
冠词 is missing for daily communication often.
Man,get a job and talk to people.
Are you H4 or F2?
"Consumer Prices in U.S. Rose in February as Gasoline Jumped"
the title of a news, you can google it.
hahahaha
funny

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: NIH SUSPENSION 的链接拿出来看看
: 连冠词都不会用的人，还讲English Level，算了吧你
avatar
D*a
48 楼
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
发信人: tomcat76 (BBSID), 信区: WaterWorld
标 题: Re: 方舟子的新语丝: 袁隆平正在阻碍中国农业科学技术的进步
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Mar 15 14:08:37 2012, 美东)
yuan longping is a shit
Shit是可数名词吗？ 应该是 a piece of shit。你笨得连骂人都不会
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
发信人: tomcat76 (BBSID), 信区: WaterWorld
标 题: Re: 方舟子的新语丝: 袁隆平正在阻碍中国农业科学技术的进步
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Mar 15 16:14:49 2012, 美东)
He is really an idiot about GM food,he just proved himself a dude by his his
stupid comment.
We praised him for his work before, he also deserve "a shit" now.
1. 在...方面应该用IN,不能用About。
2. 你自己查查字典Dude什么意思
3. comment应该用复数Comments
4. deserve应该用deserves

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: haha
: 冠词 is missing for daily communication often.
: Man,get a job and talk to people.
: Are you H4 or F2?
: "Consumer Prices in U.S. Rose in February as Gasoline Jumped"
: the title of a news, you can google it.
: hahahaha
: funny
avatar
h*s
49 楼
Well, I have to say, your deep sh*t really sucks - sorry to say that man, no
offense, sheer fact. Why? see below.

Your English indeed sucks. "Suspension" means in "patients clinicly"? In
which English dictionary did you see that?
I read all discussions in your refs-link page, nowhere mentioned the fact/
conclusion/discussion that "no significant different has been observed
compared to the kids without the treatment"? So I have to assume this is
sort of deep sh*t interpretation from your excellent imagination. For your
crappy memory, here is you original big mouth statement:
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/WaterWorld/1335857_0.html
Could you sucker pls kindly point me to original refs?
BTW, "different" is a silly English expression which should be "difference."
Again, your English indeed sucks - which is annoying.
Noooooo, don't don't, don't be sorry for "embarasing" - it's OK, let me help
you, it's "embarrassing". Well, have you ever considered writing in another
language that you know better? Such as? 中文！

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: poor man, you can not understand those things
: 1 suspension means in "patients clinicly", not in trial or lab(they
: mentioned animals)
: 2 The data in (U.S.)-------The only fact from (German) group's papers
: so poor man, only can read ---description--- not ---discussion--
: I guess you can not tell description from discussion, basicly when you
: discuss something you will mention the issue first, that does not mean you
: agree with it.
: haha, sorry for embarasing you
:
avatar
h*s
50 楼
我对你写英语，那是又爱又恨，唉。。。你这傻小子，不错！英语学好了，将来有出息

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: haha
: 冠词 is missing for daily communication often.
: Man,get a job and talk to people.
: Are you H4 or F2?
: "Consumer Prices in U.S. Rose in February as Gasoline Jumped"
: the title of a news, you can google it.
: hahahaha
: funny
avatar
h*s
51 楼
赞 “my god”

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: my god
: NIH suspended it last year after the trial began in 2009.
: Your guys need check your IQ and english level
: my god
avatar
t*6
52 楼
haha
so funny
haha
I likes yours chineses englishsss
haha

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------
: 发信人: tomcat76 (BBSID), 信区: WaterWorld
: 标 题: Re: 方舟子的新语丝: 袁隆平正在阻碍中国农业科学技术的进步
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Mar 15 14:08:37 2012, 美东)
: yuan longping is a shit
: Shit是可数名词吗？ 应该是 a piece of shit。你笨得连骂人都不会
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------
: 发信人: tomcat76 (BBSID), 信区: WaterWorld
: 标 题: Re: 方舟子的新语丝: 袁隆平正在阻碍中国农业科学技术的进步
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Mar 15 16:14:49 2012, 美东)
avatar
h*s
53 楼

No, I do not. I live in FEIZHOU.
Yes.
Sorry for that. I can't read English, US!

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: you do not live in U.S.?
: you use powerword to translate "suspension'?
: My god, just wasted my time, you can not read english.
avatar
f*0
54 楼
肘子的特点是死不认错
avatar
h*s
55 楼
怎么，你耸了？
你大嘴巴说的"no significant different has been observed
compared to the kids without the treatment"? 参见：
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/WaterWorld/1335857_0.html
哪有参考事实、结论或者讨论啊？
和肘子一样爱夸大、造假和造谣是吧？

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: my god
: NIH suspended it last year after the trial began in 2009.
: Your guys need check your IQ and english level
: my god
avatar
h*s
56 楼
我不理解，你怎么这么弱智？嗯，这是为什么?

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: haha
: so funny
: haha
: I likes yours chineses englishsss
: haha
avatar
g*t
57 楼
跟大象为什么不长毛的原因一样

【在 h***s 的大作中提到】
: 我不理解，你怎么这么弱智？嗯，这是为什么?
avatar
h*s
58 楼
tomcat76 你来说说，大象为什么不长毛？但是不要抄袭肘子的著作。

【在 t******6 的大作中提到】
: haha
: so funny
: haha
: I likes yours chineses englishsss
: haha
avatar
e*0
59 楼
理论上说，肖的手术方案是可行的，看不出会完全不成功。况且，之前的动物实验的结
论还是比较一致的。

【在 D*******a 的大作中提到】
: 肖的80%数据是否有水,我不清楚,不过美国那个3年期临床试验7人6个拔掉尿管和肖的成
: 功率也差不多,考虑到这是第一期试验,这个结果已经可以说是Perfect了
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