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你们生物PHD猥琐男女平时吃不吃核桃补补脑?# Biology - 生物学
s*y
1
现在红遍天下的光遗传学,大家(包括我)都认为是Stanford的Deisseroth创造的。但
是昨天我不小心看到了一篇新闻文章,才惊讶的发现其实最早做出来的,有可能是
Wayne State University的潘卓华。虽然他的投稿时间和Deisseroth的类似,但是因为
他是一个没有什么名气的学者,而且他的文章包装得不对,所以他的文章被百般耽误,
最后比Deisseroth的晚了一年才发表。
在2004年底潘就做出了和Deisseroth几乎一样的文章,除了用的细胞略微不同:他做的
神经细胞是从视网膜分离的,而Deisseroth 做的神经细胞是从大脑分离的。然后他把
文章陆续投向Nature, Nature Neuroscience,Journal of Neuroscience,却统统遭到
了拒稿。然后大半年之后,也就是2005年8月份,Deisseroth 的文章发表在Nature
Neuroscience上。潘得知之后,心都凉了。
有意思的是潘卓华发现自己的文章被人scoop之后写信问 Nature Neuroscience为什么
两篇几乎一模一样的文章,他们接受了Deisseroth 的文章而不接受他的文章。对方回
应说,虽然两篇文章非常相似,但是Deisseroth 的文章是作为一个技术文章来推销的
,而潘的文章是作为恢复视觉的研究文章来写的。所以对方觉得他的文章"too
narrow", "too focused".
潘的文章最后发表在Neuron 上。他的文章比Deisseroth的更为完整,因为Deisseroth
的只用了细胞,而他是直接用了老鼠来证明。但是这一切都晚了,因为他的文章最后比
Deisseroth的晚了整整一年,大部分人看了都直接以为他的文章是跟风的,没有新意的
一个“你做了细胞,我就做做老鼠看看”那种工作。于是Deisseroth成为了光遗传之父
,而潘卓华什么都不是,他的实验室勉强维持着一个R01的水平
https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/01/optogenetics/
He may have invented one of neuroscience’s biggest advances. But you’ve
never heard of him
Zhuo-Hua Pan in his lab at Wayne State University in Detroit.
The next revolution in medicine just might come from a new lab technique
that makes neurons sensitive to light. The technique, called optogenetics,
is one of the biggest breakthroughs in neuroscience in decades. It has the
potential to cure blindness, treat Parkinson’s disease, and relieve chronic
pain. Moreover, it’s become widely used to probe the workings of animals’
brains in the lab, leading to breakthroughs in scientists’ understanding
of things like sleep, addiction, and sensation.
So it’s not surprising that the two Americans hailed as inventors of
optogenetics are rock stars in the science world. Karl Deisseroth at
Stanford University and Ed Boyden at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology have collected tens of millions in grants and won millions in
prize money in recent years. They’ve stocked their labs with the best
equipment and the brightest minds. They’ve been lauded in the media and
celebrated at conferences around the world. They’re considered all but
certain to win a Nobel Prize.
There’s only one problem with this story:
It just may be that Zhuo-Hua Pan invented optogenetics first.
Even many neuroscientists have never heard of Pan.
Pan, 60, is a vision scientist at Wayne State University in Detroit who
began his research career in his home country of China. He moved to the
United States in the 1980s to pursue his PhD and never left. He wears wire-
rimmed glasses over a broad nose framed by smile-lines in his cheeks. His
colleagues describe him as a pure scientist: modest, dedicated, careful.
Pan was driven by a desire to cure blindness. In the early 2000s, he
imagined that putting a light-sensitive protein into the eye could restore
vision in the blind — compensating for the death of rods and cones by
making other cells light-sensitive.
That was the germ of the idea of optogenetics — taking a protein that
converts light into electrical activity and putting it into neurons. That
way, scientists could shine light and stimulate the neurons remotely,
allowing them to manipulate brain circuits. Others had experimented with
trying to make neurons light-sensitive before, but those strategies hadn’t
caught on because they lacked the right light-sensitive protein.
That all changed with the first molecular description of channelrhodopsin,
published in 2003.
Channelrhodopsin, a protein made by green algae, responds to light by
pumping ions into cells, which helps the algae search out sunlight.
That “was one of the most exciting things in my life,” Pan said. “I
thought, wow! This is the molecule we are looking for. This is the light
sensor we are looking for.”
By February 2004, he was trying channelrhodopsin out in ganglion cells —
the neurons in our eyes that connect directly to the brain — that he had
cultured in a dish. They became electrically active in response to light.
Over the moon with excitement, Pan applied for a grant from the National
Institutes of Health. The NIH awarded him $300,000, with the comment that
his research was “quite an unprecedented, highly innovative proposal,
bordering on the unknown.”
A side view of a blind mouse’s retina containing channelrhodopsin. The
round structures at the bottom are the cell bodies of the neurons.
A close-up of the mouse retina showing neurons with channelrhodopsin and
green fluorescent protein.
Pan didn’t know it at the time but he was racing against research groups
across the United States and around the world to put channelrhodopsin into
neurons.
Deisseroth and Boyden were working at Stanford, where Deisseroth was
finishing a postdoc and Boyden was finishing graduate school. At least two
other groups were in the game as well, led by Stefan Herlitze and Lynn
Landmesser, who were at Case Western Reserve University at the time, and
Hiromu Yawo at Tohoku University in Japan.
And they were by no means the only scientists experimenting with ways to
control neurons with light. By 2004, Gero Miesenbock and Richard Kramer had
already published articles using other, more complicated molecules for that
purpose. But channelrhodopsin was the tool that was about to revolutionize
the field.
The Stanford group had been toying with the idea of controlling neurons with
light for quite some time. They had also noticed the paper about the
discovery of channelrhodopsin. Deisseroth got in touch with the paper’s
author, Georg Nagel, in March 2004 and asked if Nagel would collaborate,
sharing the channelrhodopsin DNA so Boyden could try it out in neurons. In
August 2004, Boyden shined light on a brain neuron in a dish and recorded
electrical activity from the channelrhodopsin.
Pan had done the same thing with retina neurons six months earlier. But then
he got scooped.
‘We didn’t feel very lucky’
Boyden, who is now a professor at MIT, was surprised when told by STAT that
Pan ran the experiment first.
“Wow. Interesting. I didn’t know that,” Boyden said.
“It’s funny to think about how science regards when something is proven,”
he added, noting that scientists build on each others’ work, sometimes
working together while at other times working in parallel, scrambling onto
one another’s shoulders. “There’s both intentional and unintentional
teamwork,” he said.
The Stanford press office said Deisseroth was unavailable. In response to
questions provided by STAT, spokesman Bruce Goldman wrote that Pan’s study
was “a far cry from the use of optogenetics … to open up a new world of
precision neuroscience. That’s the potential revealed in Dr. Deisseroth’s
widely cited 2005 publication.”
Pan said he might have mentioned the timing of his experiment to Boyden once
several years ago, but, Pan said, “I didn’t want to take too much time to
talk about this because people feel uncomfortable.”
That sentiment is in keeping with Pan’s wider approach — diligent,
reserved, outside the limelight. Wayne State is a small university not known
for its scientific research. Pan had gone to a state school for his PhD,
then done mostly obscure research for decades. These things may have
contributed to what happened next, when he tried to get his invention out
into the world: It wasn’t seen as the big advance it was.
A model of a human eye in Pan’s lab.
Pan spent the summer of 2004 figuring out how to get the channelrhodopsin
protein into a living eye. He settled on the idea of using a virus, which
could infect cells in the eye and sneak the channelrhodopsin DNA inside. His
colleague, Alexander Dizhoor, a professor at Salus University, engineered
the channelrhodopsin DNA to add the gene for a protein that fluoresced green
under blue light, so they could track where the channelrhodopsin ended up.
In July 2004, Pan dosed his first rat with the virus. About five weeks later
, he looked at the retinas to see if it had worked. What he saw was a sea of
green — thousands of ganglion cells had the green protein coupled to
channelrhodopsin in their membranes. And when he stuck an electrode in one
of those cells and turned on a lamp, the cell responded with a flurry of
electrical activity. The channelrhodopsin was working. It was just a first
step, but it was a revolutionary step — indicating that Pan’s method may
just be able to restore sight to the blind.
“Everything turned out beautifully,” Pan said.
So Pan and Dizhoor wrote a paper about their work and submitted it to Nature
on November 25, 2004, according to the submission letter Pan shared with
STAT. The editors at Nature suggested they send it on to a more specialized
journal called Nature Neuroscience, which rejected it. Early the next year,
Pan sent the paper to the Journal of Neuroscience, where it was reviewed but
then again rejected.
Disheartened, Pan set to work revising his paper, and in May 2005 traveled
to Fort Lauderdale, Fla. for the Association for Research in Vision and
Opthamologyconference, where he described his work using channelrhodopsin in
neurons.That single lecture, lasting just 15 minutes, would come to be his
clearest stake along the timeline of invention.
It was what came next that would make that stake matter. A few months later,
in August of 2005, Nature Neuroscience published a paper about using
channelrhodopsin to make neurons sensitive to light. The paper was by Edward
Boyden and Karl Deisseroth.
Pan heard the news from a colleague who emailed him the paper. “I felt
terrible. I felt terrible,” Pan said, pausing. “We didn’t feel very lucky
.”
Met with a shrug
Deisseroth and Boyden’s paper was slightly different than Pan’s. They
simply demonstrated that they could use channelrhodopsin to control neurons
’ activity in a dish; Pan had waited to publish until he could make it work
in a live animal. And Deisseroth and Boyden had shown incredibly precise
time control, by turning the light on for just a millisecond. But their
technical feat was essentially the same: They had used channelrhodopsin to
successfully make neurons in a dish respond to illumination.
The Stanford paper took a little while to take off, but take off it did. The
work jump-started both Deisseroth’s and Boyden’s careers, landing them
big money grants and talented students for their labs — Deisseroth at
Stanford and Boyden at MIT. The New York Times started writing about
Deisseroth’s breakthroughs with optogenetics in 2007, and the citations of
the research paper took off exponentially.
By the time Pan finally managed to publish his paper, in Neuron in April
2006, it was mostly met with a shrug. Richard Kramer, a neuroscientist at UC
Berkeley who was also studying vision, remembers, “It wasn’t that
creative, it was just ‘Oh look, you can put channelrhodopsin in neurons
from the brain, you can also put it in neurons from the retina.’ Was it
impressive? No.”
Those handful of months seem to have made all the difference.
Culture dishes growing bacteria and dissection tools used in Pan’s lab.
Why didn’t Pan’s paper get published first? He may never know the answer.
After Boyden’s paper came out, Pan wrote to the editor at Nature
Neuroscience asking how they could have rejected his paper but published
Boyden’s.
In her response, the editor replied that while the papers were similar,
Boyden et al. presented theirs as a new technology rather than as a
scientific finding. Pan’s paper, it seemed, was too narrow, only focusing
on using channelrhodopsin to restore vision, while Boyden’s paper took the
broad view of thinking of channelrhodopsin as a tool for neuroscience in
general.
The reviews that other researchers submitted to the Journal of Neuroscience
shed some more light on what people thought of Pan’s paper. One reviewer
liked it and had some minor suggestions for improvement. The other, in a
single long paragraph, said the research was “ambitious” and “very
preliminary” and concluded that “there is too little here to entice most
neuroscientists.”
In hindsight, Pan’s coauthor Dizhoor can’t help but laugh while reading
that. Reviewers would ultimately greenlight an expanded version of Pan’s
paper, in 2006, with minimal revisions.
But that hasn’t elevated Pan to the optogenetics pantheon. In terms of
publication, he was quite late to the party, with three different groups
publishing papers about channelrhodopsin before he did. He didn’t share in
two big prizes that recently went to Deisseroth and Boyden, the Brain Prize
in 2013 (1 million euros split between six inventors of optogenetics) and
the Breakthrough Prize in 2015 ($3 million each to Boyden and Deisseroth).
Since 2005, Deisseroth has been awarded over $18 million in NIH grants for
his work on optogenetics, and Boyden has received more than $10 million.
Both have other major projects that bring in additional funding to their
labs each year. Boyden is a prolific speaker who’s given multiple TED talks
; Deisseroth was the subject of an in-depth profile in the New Yorker in
2015.
Pan, on the other hand, has cumulatively received just over $3 million over
the past 10 years and holds one NIH grant — the bare minimum to keep a
research program going. Most of the accolades for his work have come from
Wayne State University. According to his website, he’s been invited to give
a couple of talks — most recently at a technology show in Russia.
Pan in his lab at Wayne State University, where he continues to work on
channelrhodopsin.
Rules of the invention game
The whole saga raises the question of what it means to invent something in
science. It’s a question that has plagued scientists in recent years —
including the ongoing CRISPR patent fight — as research becomes ever more
global and the spoils of biotechnology and medical discoveries become ever
more valuable.
The answer, it turns out, shifts depending on context.
Fellow academics often consider the first scientists to publish a paper on a
technique the discoverers or inventors of that technique.
But that metric can be problematic, as Pan’s experience shows. In a recent
essay in the journal eLife, Ronald Vale and Anthony Hyman, two biologists,
laid out the problem. They point out that “the delay between the submission
of a paper and its publication can range from a few weeks to more than two
years,” adding that journals “slow down and create inequities in how
knowledge is transferred from the scientist to the worldwide scientific
community.”
And reviewers can be biased toward familiar names or prestigious
institutions.Blinded review, in which the author’s name is redacted, has
been suggested as a way to minimize that effect, but many scientists are
skeptical that it would work, since research is often discussed ahead of
time at conferences.
Vale and Hyman advocate, instead, for scientists to post drafts of their
work on “preprint servers” such as bioRxiv before they submit it to
journals. If such a server had been widely used by neuroscientists in 2004,
Pan could have posted his rejected findings there, staking his claim.
But whether that would mean he would be on the short list for the Nobel
Prize is unclear. Kramer thinks that even if Pan had published on bioRxiv,
he’d be shut out because he wasn’t the first to publish a peer-reviewed
paper on the technique. That’s what will matter if and when the inventors
of optogenetics win the Nobel.
The legal system doesn’t play by quite the same rules. According to an
American Bar Association representative specializing in patent law, to prove
precedence for a patent in the early 2000s, most of the time you needed to
show both “when someone had actually conceived of the invention — that’s
sort of in your mind the lightbulb going off, ‘Aha! I have it!’ — and
when the invention was reduced to practice — that means you’ve actually
done it and you’ve proven that your idea can work.”
By those standards, a discovery happens at the time of its demonstration in
the lab, even before it’s been posted on a preprint server.
Then there’s the court of public opinion. Scientists are increasingly
public personalities, running Twitter accounts and appearing on late-night
talk shows.
“The quality rising to the top is a little more influenced by non-
scientific things than it used to be,” said Richard Masland, an emeritus
professor at Harvard Medical School, who also holds patents on gene therapy
for blindness.
Being at Wayne State University might have meant that Pan didn’t have the
resources to get a high-profile paper published. There’s the actual costs
of doing high quality of research, but in addition, senior researchers at
top universities usually mentor junior professors, reading their work and
helping them take it to the next level.
Pan agrees that fact may have put him at a disadvantage compared with
scientists at prestigious institutions like MIT or Stanford. “Of course, I
cannot prove that with evidence,” he said. And Pan’s modesty and non-
native language abilities may have kept him from promoting himself as well
as Boyden and Deisseroth did.
“He’s just not as public a speaker and presenter as other people in the
field. And this is an important part of the whole game of being able to get
out there and sell yourself,” Kramer, the UC Berkeley vision researcher,
said.
That publicity can be self-reinforcing. Landmesser, the Case Western
professor who worked on channelrhodopsin in the beginning, said, “I think
there’s always a tendency [that] whoever gets there first gets more
publicity, let’s put it that way.”
A university PR video can spawn a national news article, which spurs someone
to think of your name in nominations for a nice cash prize, which leads to
some TV appearances. The word “inventor” gets used at some point and
before you know it you’re Google’s automatic answer to the question “Who
invented optogenetics?”
A chalkboard and glassware drying rack in Pan’s lab. He has used
channelrhodopsin to help blind mice see.
Ultimately, both Pan and the team of Boyden and Deisseroth won patents for
their discoveries.
Pan’s May 2005 lecture threatened to derail the Boyden-Deisseroth patent
for a while — the US patent office rejected it multiple times because Pan’
s abstract was published more than a year before they got around to filing.
Eventually, Deisseroth and Boyden signed a document stating that they had
invented this method of using channelrhodopsin privately in the lab before
Pan’s conference abstract was published. The relevant patent was issued in
March 2016, almost 10 years after they filed.
Now, Deisseroth is a cofounder and scientific advisor at Circuit
Therapeutics, a company developing a wide range of therapies based on
optogenetics, presumably using Deisseroth’s patented inventions. (Circuit
Therapeutics declined to comment on specifics of their intellectual property
licenses.)
Pan won a patent as well, to use channelrhodopsin to restore vision in the
eye. His patent was licensed by RetroSense, which won an award from the
Angel Capital Association in 2015. Retrosense — whose CEO in passing told
STAT about Pan’s role in the invention of optogenetics — began clinical
trials this year to put the algae proteins in blind people using gene
therapy. It’s the first application of optogenetics in humans and the first
time a non-human gene is being used in a gene therapy trial.
Right now, there are blind people in Texas walking around with algae DNA and
proteins in their eyes. And that was what Pan was in it for all along. “
One thing I still feel glad about is that even right now our clinical study
is still ahead of anyone,” Pan said.
But given that there are no gene therapies approved for clinical use in the
United States, the road to successfully using optogenetics in humans will
likely be a long one. Yang Dan, a professor of neuroscience at UC Berkeley
who uses optogenetics to study sleep, isn’t betting on optogenetics cures
being in the clinic any time soon. “I believe that these safety checks will
take a long, long time,” she said.
As for the invention itself, some scientists say Pan may not have had the
big, award-worthy vision that Deisseroth and Boyden had. Stefan Herlitze,
one of the others who was scooped for the first publication about
channelrhodopsin in neurons, said, “Of course I have to say, Deisseroth and
Boyden, they really developed the field further.”
Boyden echoed this. “Karl and I were very interested in the general
question of how to control cell types in the brain,” he said. “In recent
years, we worked to push these molecules to their logical limits.”
So maybe it doesn’t matter who invented optogenetics, just who has
stretched science’s boundaries the furthest.
Asked whether he deserves the recognition that Boyden and Deisseroth have
enjoyed, Pan declined to answer. He later told STAT that Deisseroth “also
did a very excellent job, no doubt. But he’s also very lucky because if our
paper was ahead of him, the story would be different. We would have gotten
more credit.”
That is about as much as Pan is willing to say about the way his cards fell.
Today he’s still in Detroit. He’s been working on new versions of
channelrhodopsin that could be used to cure blindness. “My lab is a very
small lab,” Pan said, “We’re mainly interested in trying to restore
vision.”
avatar
k*g
2
喝不喝脑白金???
avatar
d*a
3
共享诺奖?
avatar
k*0
4
杀了老鼠,就插根管吸了脑子,想尝一下不?
avatar
L*s
5
生物领域的风气就是这么的无耻...

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 现在红遍天下的光遗传学,大家(包括我)都认为是Stanford的Deisseroth创造的。但
: 是昨天我不小心看到了一篇新闻文章,才惊讶的发现其实最早做出来的,有可能是
: Wayne State University的潘卓华。虽然他的投稿时间和Deisseroth的类似,但是因为
: 他是一个没有什么名气的学者,而且他的文章包装得不对,所以他的文章被百般耽误,
: 最后比Deisseroth的晚了一年才发表。
: 在2004年底潘就做出了和Deisseroth几乎一样的文章,除了用的细胞略微不同:他做的
: 神经细胞是从视网膜分离的,而Deisseroth 做的神经细胞是从大脑分离的。然后他把
: 文章陆续投向Nature, Nature Neuroscience,Journal of Neuroscience,却统统遭到
: 了拒稿。然后大半年之后,也就是2005年8月份,Deisseroth 的文章发表在Nature
: Neuroscience上。潘得知之后,心都凉了。

avatar
b*1
6
NIH的策略就是养蛊,用最少的钱,驱动这么多蛊虫厮杀,便宜劳动力,然后推动生物
医疗新发现。
跟你们工科不一样,我们深陷其中,无力自拔啊!

【在 L***s 的大作中提到】
: 生物领域的风气就是这么的无耻...
avatar
s*y
7

没有任何可能。
潘的遭遇类似那个最先克隆水母发光蛋白的那个人(Douglas Prasher),都是因为没
有得到足够的资源,导致他们都没能直接参与这个工具的发展过程,最后credit 都没
有落到他们头上。
不过Roger Tsien 比较有良心的一点是他在不同的场合都宣扬Douglas的贡献。甚至在
Douglas潦倒的去开出租车的时候把他请到自己的实验室里工作。
但是Karl Deisseroth估计都讨厌死潘了。因为潘在2005年早期把他的成果在
一个学术会议上给了一个short talk, 美国专利局因为这个原因在过去10年一直
反复的驳回Deisseroth的专利申请,直到最近才解决了这个问题。

【在 d***a 的大作中提到】
: 共享诺奖?
avatar
S*y
8
当时一个薄厚,一个研究生!!!
avatar
d*g
9
如何解决的? 最后忽略了。这个talk应该就是证据,应该多宣传。还好做了个talk,
不然一点痕迹都没有。

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
:
: 没有任何可能。
: 潘的遭遇类似那个最先克隆水母发光蛋白的那个人(Douglas Prasher),都是因为没
: 有得到足够的资源,导致他们都没能直接参与这个工具的发展过程,最后credit 都没
: 有落到他们头上。
: 不过Roger Tsien 比较有良心的一点是他在不同的场合都宣扬Douglas的贡献。甚至在
: Douglas潦倒的去开出租车的时候把他请到自己的实验室里工作。
: 但是Karl Deisseroth估计都讨厌死潘了。因为潘在2005年早期把他的成果在
: 一个学术会议上给了一个short talk, 美国专利局因为这个原因在过去10年一直
: 反复的驳回Deisseroth的专利申请,直到最近才解决了这个问题。

avatar
s*y
10

现在的解决方案就是这个专利一分为二,用光触发通道做工具的专利大部分都归Karl
Deisseroth他们,但是用光触发通道做视觉恢复的专利单独拆分出来归潘卓华。

【在 d***g 的大作中提到】
: 如何解决的? 最后忽略了。这个talk应该就是证据,应该多宣传。还好做了个talk,
: 不然一点痕迹都没有。

avatar
s*y
11

你说的博士后是指Karl么?他那个时候可不是普通的博士后,他是MD clinician,所以
他的postdoctoral fellow 的名称其实和我们PhD postdoctoral researcher 有本质的
不同。他那个时候就已经是一个独立实验室的PI,有自己的研究生和本科生(张锋就是
他的本科生,是那个文章的二作)。
应该肯定的说,Karl Deisseroth在工程上的vision是很牛的。他在光遗传学上的成就
几乎可以肯定不是受了潘的影响而是分别独立做出来的。但是Nature Neuroscience 面
对两篇几乎一样的文章毫不犹豫的选了名校发表的那一篇而拒了另外一个没有什么名气
的学校的一篇,才是这个报道里批评的重点吧。
其实我转发这篇帖子,除了为潘感到惋惜之外,更多的原因是觉得要提醒自己以及大家
,发文章的时候一定要注意包装,以及点出重点,不要指望reviewers 慧眼识人,而杂
志主编更是不能指望,尤其是很多主编自己没有判断力而把所有决定取决于审稿人的语
气以及态度。

【在 S*******y 的大作中提到】
: 当时一个薄厚,一个研究生!!!
avatar
S*y
12
当时一个薄厚,一个研究生!!!
avatar
s*a
13
“Wow. Interesting. I didn’t know that,” Boyden said.
这副嘴脸太虚伪了。明明潘几年前就跟他提过。

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
:
: 你说的博士后是指Karl么?他那个时候可不是普通的博士后,他是MD clinician,所以
: 他的postdoctoral fellow 的名称其实和我们PhD postdoctoral researcher 有本质的
: 不同。他那个时候就已经是一个独立实验室的PI,有自己的研究生和本科生(张锋就是
: 他的本科生,是那个文章的二作)。
: 应该肯定的说,Karl Deisseroth在工程上的vision是很牛的。他在光遗传学上的成就
: 几乎可以肯定不是受了潘的影响而是分别独立做出来的。但是Nature Neuroscience 面
: 对两篇几乎一样的文章毫不犹豫的选了名校发表的那一篇而拒了另外一个没有什么名气
: 的学校的一篇,才是这个报道里批评的重点吧。
: 其实我转发这篇帖子,除了为潘感到惋惜之外,更多的原因是觉得要提醒自己以及大家

avatar
s*e
14
我们学科好像没这样的事情。看来我们做工程的人还是诚实多了。
avatar
s*a
15
我最近投文章的确感受到非名校junior faculty的悲哀。基本都是不送审直接被editor
拒。而送审之后reviewer的评价都很好。
感觉如果学校好一些,应该可以发到更好的杂志上。。。

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
:
: 你说的博士后是指Karl么?他那个时候可不是普通的博士后,他是MD clinician,所以
: 他的postdoctoral fellow 的名称其实和我们PhD postdoctoral researcher 有本质的
: 不同。他那个时候就已经是一个独立实验室的PI,有自己的研究生和本科生(张锋就是
: 他的本科生,是那个文章的二作)。
: 应该肯定的说,Karl Deisseroth在工程上的vision是很牛的。他在光遗传学上的成就
: 几乎可以肯定不是受了潘的影响而是分别独立做出来的。但是Nature Neuroscience 面
: 对两篇几乎一样的文章毫不犹豫的选了名校发表的那一篇而拒了另外一个没有什么名气
: 的学校的一篇,才是这个报道里批评的重点吧。
: 其实我转发这篇帖子,除了为潘感到惋惜之外,更多的原因是觉得要提醒自己以及大家

avatar
x*s
16
这个摘要得算生物学领域相当有价值的了!
http://iovs.arvojournals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2404051
ARVO Annual Meeting Abstract | May 2005
Functional Expression of a Directly Light–Gated Membrane Channel in
Mammalian Retinal Neurons: A Potential Strategy for Restoring Light
Sensitivity to the Retina After Photoreceptor Degeneration
Z.–H. Pan; A. Bi; Y.–P. Ma; E. Olshevskaya; A.M. Dizhoor
看这几句话
“The Chop2–GFP–expressing retinal neurons exhibited robust membrane
depolarization in response to light stimulation and did not require an
exogenous source of all–trans retinal. Conclusions: We demonstrate the
functional expression of a directly light–gated membrane channel,
channelrhodopsin–2, in rat retinal neurons in vivo. ”
avatar
s*y
17
因为有申请专利的conflict of interest 吧。估计不方便把话说得太清楚。

【在 s*******a 的大作中提到】
: “Wow. Interesting. I didn’t know that,” Boyden said.
: 这副嘴脸太虚伪了。明明潘几年前就跟他提过。

avatar
b*0
18
如果把两篇文章互换作者,编辑选潘的文章概率有多大?

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 因为有申请专利的conflict of interest 吧。估计不方便把话说得太清楚。
avatar
s*y
19
从报道里看来,潘的文章的数据更为充分,他除了在神经细胞上证明了光触发通道能用
之外,还直接在动物模型里证明了在体内也能用。Karl Deisseroth的文章的数据其实
没有那么丰富,只有细胞数据而没有动物数据。
但是Karl Deisseroth把他的文章写成一个用光触发通道来改变细胞行为来作为研究工
具的文章,而潘把他的文章写成一个用光触发通道来改变细胞行为来治疗疾病的文章,
所以潘的文章很容易遭到审稿者更多的攻击和质疑。
我想我们对于潘的遭遇,除了同情之外,更多的需要思考我们如何避免他的悲剧。

【在 b*********0 的大作中提到】
: 如果把两篇文章互换作者,编辑选潘的文章概率有多大?
avatar
z*t
20
在研究做到顶尖时候
各种打压就显现出来了
因为很多新的顶尖工作几乎是并行出来,或正进行中
各个领域华人都比较弱势
经常吃亏
avatar
w*h
21
当一个领域都是肉的时候,大家抢得欢;
当一个领域只剩下大骨头,谁还稀罕上面点点不知道被多少人尝过的五味零星碎渣。。
。。

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 我们学科好像没这样的事情。看来我们做工程的人还是诚实多了。
avatar
s*e
22
这个跟学科的风气还是很有关系的。我们这行曾经红得发紫,但是那会儿也没有听说啥
剽窃抢发明权之类的,也可能是跟工程科学的验证比较容易相关。
当然也有过两个大佬争”XXX之父“的名号,但是那个的确是不太说得清楚,因为两个
人贡献都很大。

【在 w********h 的大作中提到】
: 当一个领域都是肉的时候,大家抢得欢;
: 当一个领域只剩下大骨头,谁还稀罕上面点点不知道被多少人尝过的五味零星碎渣。。
: 。。

avatar
G*g
23
可以一个叫XXX之父,一个叫XXX老爹

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 这个跟学科的风气还是很有关系的。我们这行曾经红得发紫,但是那会儿也没有听说啥
: 剽窃抢发明权之类的,也可能是跟工程科学的验证比较容易相关。
: 当然也有过两个大佬争”XXX之父“的名号,但是那个的确是不太说得清楚,因为两个
: 人贡献都很大。

avatar
s*e
24
或者一个叫XXX之父,一个叫XXX之母。

【在 G*********g 的大作中提到】
: 可以一个叫XXX之父,一个叫XXX老爹
avatar
w*h
25
让我们追溯到牛顿和莱布尼兹时代。。。。。

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 这个跟学科的风气还是很有关系的。我们这行曾经红得发紫,但是那会儿也没有听说啥
: 剽窃抢发明权之类的,也可能是跟工程科学的验证比较容易相关。
: 当然也有过两个大佬争”XXX之父“的名号,但是那个的确是不太说得清楚,因为两个
: 人贡献都很大。

avatar
s*e
26
他们这属于两个人贡献都很大然后争当爹的情况。应该是没用剽窃在里头。
或说楼顶故事那人干嘛不先找个烂地方投稿抢先?

【在 w********h 的大作中提到】
: 让我们追溯到牛顿和莱布尼兹时代。。。。。
avatar
w*h
27
楼顶故事似乎也不牵扯剽窃,也是争首创权。

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 他们这属于两个人贡献都很大然后争当爹的情况。应该是没用剽窃在里头。
: 或说楼顶故事那人干嘛不先找个烂地方投稿抢先?

avatar
s*a
28
当年张生家抢发文章的理由就是这个啊。所以人家投了个IF 1.*的,两天就发出来了。
看来张非常了解这行的行规嘛。。。

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 他们这属于两个人贡献都很大然后争当爹的情况。应该是没用剽窃在里头。
: 或说楼顶故事那人干嘛不先找个烂地方投稿抢先?

avatar
s*a
29
另外我觉得潘之前投Nature子刊的编辑拒稿信也可以成为证据吧。投稿信,拒稿信,当
年的manuscript...应该都有日期的吧?
avatar
B*e
30
这属于writing的问题,做出来什么并不是最重要,能write well把它包装出来pitch成
一个very exciting story这才是最最重要的,这就是为什么很多出色的faculty都是
debate champion的原因。
avatar
s*y
31

他应该是不知道有人在做和他类似的工作。他其实最气的是Nature Neuroscience 面对
两篇类似的文章拒了他的而接受了别人的。如果那个报道里说的时间都是对的话,其实
潘在细胞里做出类似现象的时间比Karl 早半年,投稿时间应该也比Karl略早,但是最
后发出来却晚了整整一年。

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 他们这属于两个人贡献都很大然后争当爹的情况。应该是没用剽窃在里头。
: 或说楼顶故事那人干嘛不先找个烂地方投稿抢先?

avatar
s*e
32
这一行不投会议吗?
我们这行有东西就赶快投个会议。93年行业内那篇石破天惊的文章就是投了个会议先尿
了一把。
后来那篇文章的作者死了一半。。。很诡异的事情。。。

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
:
: 他应该是不知道有人在做和他类似的工作。他其实最气的是Nature Neuroscience 面对
: 两篇类似的文章拒了他的而接受了别人的。如果那个报道里说的时间都是对的话,其实
: 潘在细胞里做出类似现象的时间比Karl 早半年,投稿时间应该也比Karl略早,但是最
: 后发出来却晚了整整一年。

avatar
s*y
33
我们这里会议摘要什么的不算peer-reviewed publication, 无论是申请资金还是申请
天牛都不能用那个充数。

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 这一行不投会议吗?
: 我们这行有东西就赶快投个会议。93年行业内那篇石破天惊的文章就是投了个会议先尿
: 了一把。
: 后来那篇文章的作者死了一半。。。很诡异的事情。。。

avatar
s*e
34
你们的会议就是大家聚聚?

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 我们这里会议摘要什么的不算peer-reviewed publication, 无论是申请资金还是申请
: 天牛都不能用那个充数。

avatar
L*s
35
我靠...

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】
: 这一行不投会议吗?
: 我们这行有东西就赶快投个会议。93年行业内那篇石破天惊的文章就是投了个会议先尿
: 了一把。
: 后来那篇文章的作者死了一半。。。很诡异的事情。。。

avatar
n*o
36
arxiv啊,dude!
avatar
n*o
37
池浅王八多
avatar
s*y
38
原文里有讨论过这个arxiv的问题,但是讨论者都指出说,因为生物领域的特殊性,
arxiv什么的是不会被同行认可的,最多也就是在申请专利的时候可以用来当理由吵一
吵已,对于申请资金啊申请那些奖项啊什么的没有用。

【在 n**********o 的大作中提到】
: arxiv啊,dude!
avatar
s*e
39
为啥不认可呢?就起个档案的作用啊。

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 原文里有讨论过这个arxiv的问题,但是讨论者都指出说,因为生物领域的特殊性,
: arxiv什么的是不会被同行认可的,最多也就是在申请专利的时候可以用来当理由吵一
: 吵已,对于申请资金啊申请那些奖项啊什么的没有用。

avatar
a*8
40
我觉得不少top journals都已经接受引用arxiv的文章了。你们生物领域本来发文章周
期就长,还不让找一个方式先发表自己的工作和community分享?

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 原文里有讨论过这个arxiv的问题,但是讨论者都指出说,因为生物领域的特殊性,
: arxiv什么的是不会被同行认可的,最多也就是在申请专利的时候可以用来当理由吵一
: 吵已,对于申请资金啊申请那些奖项啊什么的没有用。

avatar
l*n
41
马太效应

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 现在红遍天下的光遗传学,大家(包括我)都认为是Stanford的Deisseroth创造的。但
: 是昨天我不小心看到了一篇新闻文章,才惊讶的发现其实最早做出来的,有可能是
: Wayne State University的潘卓华。虽然他的投稿时间和Deisseroth的类似,但是因为
: 他是一个没有什么名气的学者,而且他的文章包装得不对,所以他的文章被百般耽误,
: 最后比Deisseroth的晚了一年才发表。
: 在2004年底潘就做出了和Deisseroth几乎一样的文章,除了用的细胞略微不同:他做的
: 神经细胞是从视网膜分离的,而Deisseroth 做的神经细胞是从大脑分离的。然后他把
: 文章陆续投向Nature, Nature Neuroscience,Journal of Neuroscience,却统统遭到
: 了拒稿。然后大半年之后,也就是2005年8月份,Deisseroth 的文章发表在Nature
: Neuroscience上。潘得知之后,心都凉了。

avatar
j*r
42
I think whether BioRxiv could be used to determine priority is an
interesting question. There just hasn't been a case yet that is important
enough and with big players to know whether claims made on BioRxiv can stand
on its own.
At least if BioRxiv had existed, and Pan had submitted there, then we can
tell now the quality of his manuscript. It is possible that the early
versions of the manuscript are very different from the final published
version. That could explain why the journals rejected it.

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 原文里有讨论过这个arxiv的问题,但是讨论者都指出说,因为生物领域的特殊性,
: arxiv什么的是不会被同行认可的,最多也就是在申请专利的时候可以用来当理由吵一
: 吵已,对于申请资金啊申请那些奖项啊什么的没有用。

avatar
B*n
43
所以俺现在管他什么结果,赶快先抢发一下。因为没有能力和大实验室、牛实验室去竞
争把工作做的像艺术品一样精美,只能抢先了。人家发20分30分的,俺就发一个2分3分
的,而且2分3分的文章不会到大牛实验室去审稿,别人都恨死俺了。
avatar
p*y
44
我最近一篇文章,在专利报上去后,投一篇领域内的好杂志,说我最后的实验差火候,
据了。我的新的方法,很容易复制,我只好先在ARXIV上备案了。一种新的制造手段,
产生过去的手段产生不了的效果,有理想状况下的实验结果,与业界共享,再完善,这
应该是很正常的步骤。
不给我发好杂志,我就先干活,会议先投了再说。专利报了,ARXIV备案了,先MOVE ON。
avatar
w*h
45
别人不仅是恨吧,更多的是鄙视.你损失的是reputation,行业大忌.

【在 B******n 的大作中提到】
: 所以俺现在管他什么结果,赶快先抢发一下。因为没有能力和大实验室、牛实验室去竞
: 争把工作做的像艺术品一样精美,只能抢先了。人家发20分30分的,俺就发一个2分3分
: 的,而且2分3分的文章不会到大牛实验室去审稿,别人都恨死俺了。

avatar
B*n
46
俺一没有抢,二没有偷,三没有剽窃,发的文章都是自己实打实的数据,有啥损失
reputation的。一个小lab,本来就没办法和巨无霸去竞争,只能在夹缝中去生存。想
找人家合作人家把idea拿走把你踢出来,要不就理都不理。现在只好很多工作去抢一个
头彩,发了文章,后续具体细致难的工作就让大牛lab去完善吧。小lab的优势就是船小
好掉头,只要有新的idea,赶快来个短平快的东西。因为抢发了一些小文章,在行业间
的引用还是不错的。

【在 w********h 的大作中提到】
: 别人不仅是恨吧,更多的是鄙视.你损失的是reputation,行业大忌.
avatar
n*g
47
听说knuth 打压姚期智 啊
[在 stoppingtime (停时) 的大作中提到:]
:或者一个叫XXX之父,一个叫XXX之母。
avatar
m*o
48
他的重点是光遗传学的另一个重要应用呀,是由他的背景和兴趣决定的,怎么不突出了
?更有可能是reviewer带偏见,甚至私心吧?

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 原文里有讨论过这个arxiv的问题,但是讨论者都指出说,因为生物领域的特殊性,
: arxiv什么的是不会被同行认可的,最多也就是在申请专利的时候可以用来当理由吵一
: 吵已,对于申请资金啊申请那些奖项啊什么的没有用。

avatar
g*o
49
凡是不能arxiv的都是耍流氓
avatar
g*o
50
论文不能arxiv的学科基本上就是耍流氓; 大佬们确实好控制

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 原文里有讨论过这个arxiv的问题,但是讨论者都指出说,因为生物领域的特殊性,
: arxiv什么的是不会被同行认可的,最多也就是在申请专利的时候可以用来当理由吵一
: 吵已,对于申请资金啊申请那些奖项啊什么的没有用。

avatar
j*z
51
我在大学的时候在国内曾经投过被接受了然后编辑部来信说收到另一作者相同的结果决
定用哪位的。这辈子我就再没投过paper,老老实实做工程靠谱。

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 原文里有讨论过这个arxiv的问题,但是讨论者都指出说,因为生物领域的特殊性,
: arxiv什么的是不会被同行认可的,最多也就是在申请专利的时候可以用来当理由吵一
: 吵已,对于申请资金啊申请那些奖项啊什么的没有用。

avatar
j*z
52
我人生算第二篇paper吧,在arxiv被杀档了。是整个帐户被杀掉。这个世界好心人是有
,但是不要以为arxiv就是什么干净的地方。我去投诉,后来来了个仲裁者决定恢复我
的账号。花了好久要从备份里恢复出来。为了防止被剽窃(因为“管理员”就是同行博
士),我改发其它地方。Bye-bye arxiv。

【在 g*******o 的大作中提到】
: 论文不能arxiv的学科基本上就是耍流氓; 大佬们确实好控制
avatar
e*g
53
对我来说2-3分的文章就可以放鞭炮了

【在 B******n 的大作中提到】
: 所以俺现在管他什么结果,赶快先抢发一下。因为没有能力和大实验室、牛实验室去竞
: 争把工作做的像艺术品一样精美,只能抢先了。人家发20分30分的,俺就发一个2分3分
: 的,而且2分3分的文章不会到大牛实验室去审稿,别人都恨死俺了。

avatar
c*x
54

上次看到胖老师的帖子是关于科研经费最优配置的,这个是关于创造发明的正式认可的。
读了还是很感慨的。杂志的editors and referees如果正好不是某个特别问题的专家,
情愿犯type I error而不愿犯type II error也算是人之常情,这个时候投稿人的学校
和资历就成了screening最主要的因素。所以,虽然不同学科之间差异很大,但是看来
来自排名相对较低的学校的junior论文发表总是处于劣势。
就以杂志给出的据稿理由来看,if that is the only positive side we can take
out from this case,好的研究,不仅要有hardcore,而且要能包装出高大上的出发点
和含义,这一点,all else being equal,华人学者相对于老外同行,确实是有提高余
地的。

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 现在红遍天下的光遗传学,大家(包括我)都认为是Stanford的Deisseroth创造的。但
: 是昨天我不小心看到了一篇新闻文章,才惊讶的发现其实最早做出来的,有可能是
: Wayne State University的潘卓华。虽然他的投稿时间和Deisseroth的类似,但是因为
: 他是一个没有什么名气的学者,而且他的文章包装得不对,所以他的文章被百般耽误,
: 最后比Deisseroth的晚了一年才发表。
: 在2004年底潘就做出了和Deisseroth几乎一样的文章,除了用的细胞略微不同:他做的
: 神经细胞是从视网膜分离的,而Deisseroth 做的神经细胞是从大脑分离的。然后他把
: 文章陆续投向Nature, Nature Neuroscience,Journal of Neuroscience,却统统遭到
: 了拒稿。然后大半年之后,也就是2005年8月份,Deisseroth 的文章发表在Nature
: Neuroscience上。潘得知之后,心都凉了。

avatar
l*y
55
还好专利不按这个定。D 的专利最后被批下来也是因为他们出示实验记录表明他们做成
功时在潘的投稿之前。
做学生的时候,开始实验记录至少每周都要互相作证签字。后来就懒散了,每次有好的
结果才去找别人签字。再后来就更懒了,就是把关键结果和大致过程 email给老板来留
证据。nnd,到目前为止,这些结果还都没有值得抢的。。。

【在 s******y 的大作中提到】
: 现在红遍天下的光遗传学,大家(包括我)都认为是Stanford的Deisseroth创造的。但
: 是昨天我不小心看到了一篇新闻文章,才惊讶的发现其实最早做出来的,有可能是
: Wayne State University的潘卓华。虽然他的投稿时间和Deisseroth的类似,但是因为
: 他是一个没有什么名气的学者,而且他的文章包装得不对,所以他的文章被百般耽误,
: 最后比Deisseroth的晚了一年才发表。
: 在2004年底潘就做出了和Deisseroth几乎一样的文章,除了用的细胞略微不同:他做的
: 神经细胞是从视网膜分离的,而Deisseroth 做的神经细胞是从大脑分离的。然后他把
: 文章陆续投向Nature, Nature Neuroscience,Journal of Neuroscience,却统统遭到
: 了拒稿。然后大半年之后,也就是2005年8月份,Deisseroth 的文章发表在Nature
: Neuroscience上。潘得知之后,心都凉了。

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