【 以下文字转载自 ChemEng 讨论区 】 发信人: abrahuang (Ab), 信区: ChemEng 标 题: Postdoc Positions_Gas Sensor 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Mon Apr 5 13:48:29 2010, 美东) Two Postdoctoral Positions Available in Dr. Xiangqun Zeng’s Research Group at Oakland University , Rochester , Michigan. Two Postdoctoral Positions supported by ONR in the area of developing explosive gas sensor array for detection of the nitro-containing (NO2) and organic peroxides explosives will be available in the summer 2010. Candidate must have a Ph.D.
1. There is RMD requirement for 401K 2. You will pay income tax on the gain 3. Your fund choices suck 4. All available funds have high expenses 5. Not flexible when you need money
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】 : 1. There is RMD requirement for 401K : 2. You will pay income tax on the gain : 3. Your fund choices suck : 4. All available funds have high expenses : 5. Not flexible when you need money
你怎么buy and hold也是用税后的钱来买的,所以是已经交过一次税的钱,从这些税后 的钱长的收益又要交一次税,所以是交两次税。 401k或IRA,无论是Traditional还是Roth,都是整笔钱只交一次税;Traditional是拿 出来的时候交税的,Roth是放进去的时候交税的。
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】 : : 我倒是不觉得这个优点有多大, 因为要看你和什么比. 你完全可以自己投资buy and : hold, 这个积累的过程gain也不用交税 (except dividend or fund turn over tax). : 但没有其他的投资能给你那个一次性的免税的.
h*n
43 楼
That happened to my parents. When my parents first time applying for visa, the vo asked my mom is 3 month ok, my mom ask her how about 6 month, then she told my mom she has immigration tendence and rejected my parents's visa. Another time my mom also told vo she wants to come over to watch out the grandchild then got rejected again. That's four years ago.
【在 h********n 的大作中提到】 : That happened to my parents. When my parents first time applying for visa, : the vo asked my mom is 3 month ok, my mom ask her how about 6 month, then : she told my mom she has immigration tendence and rejected my parents's visa. : Another time my mom also told vo she wants to come over to watch out the : grandchild then got rejected again. That's four years ago.
【在 h********n 的大作中提到】 : I told my mother we only ask for 3 month and do not say come to watch baby : but she said the vo seems very nice so she can't control herself. :(
你误解我的意思了. 正象你说的, buy and hold是用税后的钱来买的,所以是已经交过 一次税的钱, 这恰恰说明了的upfront免税的效果是巨大的, 而滚的过程不交税不是很 重要. Let me use an example to illustrate: $100 buy and hold 6% annual growth rate 20 years to invest capital gain 20% End of 20-year balance after capital tax is $276.57. (I didn't consider rebalance or dividend income here, and I agree, they could make some impact, but you could minimize such impact by investing in low dividend growth index funds). 401K investment The buy and hold $100 is after tax amount (assume income tax 33%), so 401K investment will start with $149.25 (=100/(1-33%)). Same 6% annual growth rate Same 20 years to invest High 33% income tax rate at retirement End of 20-year balance after paying income tax is $353.71. The difference is $77.14 (=$353.71-$276.57). Both of the above 2 options assumed NO tax growth during the 20 years, and the buy and hold option even assumed lower end of period tax rate (20% long term capital gain rate vs 33% income tax rate), however, buy and hold has a significantly lower end of period balance! Why? Because with 401K's upfront tax saving, you can start your investment with extra $49.25 (=$149.25-$100), this extra $49.25 will grow into $157.15 after 20 years, and even after paying 33% income tax, you will still have $ 72.29 (94% of 77.14). The conclusion? The tax-free growth of 401K is not that important, because you can replicate it with a low turnover low dividend index fund. The 401K's upfront tax saving is very powerful, because you can't find another option to replicate it!
【在 I**********2 的大作中提到】 : 我和LD,一人pension,LD 401是否max out? Max out 有什么大的缺点?还是说钱自己投 : 资比较好?谢谢
S*P
54 楼
compare to an average brokerage account, investment options in 401K are too limited, just for this reason, not even mention 'max out', i would only put the matching amount into it.
G*h
55 楼
How about the tax saving to lower tax bracket?
too put
【在 S*P 的大作中提到】 : compare to an average brokerage account, investment options in 401K are too : limited, just for this reason, not even mention 'max out', i would only put : the matching amount into it.
S*P
56 楼
the tax will due anyways, just a matter of time. it is tax detained, not tax saved.
【在 G*****h 的大作中提到】 : How about the tax saving to lower tax bracket? : : too : put
G*h
57 楼
But the saved tax (assume 25%) could grow and make a difference if invested. Maybe?
【在 S*P 的大作中提到】 : the tax will due anyways, just a matter of time. : it is tax detained, not tax saved.
f*n
58 楼
Money in IRA and 401k (both Traditional and Roth) are better than in outside accounts because you only pay tax on the value of the money once, rather than more than once (you pay tax on income earned from money already taxed).
too put
【在 S*P 的大作中提到】 : compare to an average brokerage account, investment options in 401K are too : limited, just for this reason, not even mention 'max out', i would only put : the matching amount into it.
r*m
59 楼
401K的gain拿出是也要交税的, 而且是income tax rate, 所以准确地说不是只交一次 税. 我觉得更准确的说法是: For your investment money, typically you have to pay 3 taxes: Upfront, during the growth, and at the distribution time. But an eligible retirement account can save you one of the above taxes.
S*P
60 楼
IRA and 401K are different stories. 401K is way too limited on investment options, e.g. no margin, no options. the good part of 401K I can see is when you leave the company, the money can be rolled over to a IRA.
outside ).
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】 : Money in IRA and 401k (both Traditional and Roth) are better than in outside : accounts because you only pay tax on the value of the money once, rather : than more than once (you pay tax on income earned from money already taxed). : : too : put
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】 : 401K的gain拿出是也要交税的, 而且是income tax rate, 所以准确地说不是只交一次 : 税. : 我觉得更准确的说法是: : For your investment money, typically you have to pay 3 taxes: : Upfront, during the growth, and at the distribution time. : But an eligible retirement account can save you one of the above taxes.
j*7
64 楼
这个帖子真好! 学了很多, 大牛们请继续讨论。 我搬板凳学习
r*m
65 楼
公式正确, 说明也都正确。 不过你没有注意我的帖子的main point: 401k 比 buy-and-hold 好(在那些假设的情况下), 主要是因为upfront tax saving , which accounts for most of differences between the two options.
s*d
66 楼
看你的plan吧,大公司的funds have lower ER than retail.
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 8.7
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】 : 1. There is RMD requirement for 401K : 2. You will pay income tax on the gain : 3. Your fund choices suck : 4. All available funds have high expenses : 5. Not flexible when you need money
j*7
67 楼
所以结论就是,如果税二十年后不变, 那么maxout 401k是更好的选择?
r*m
68 楼
Yes
r*m
69 楼
是的, 大公司可以access institution-class funds which tend to have lower expense ratios 再加一条好处, 401k里的funds都是vetted by a team of professionals who have fiduciary duties to employees. Of course you have the ultimate fiduciary duty to your own money, but can you really make wise choices?
【在 s**********d 的大作中提到】 : 看你的plan吧,大公司的funds have lower ER than retail. : : ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 8.7
【在 I**********2 的大作中提到】 : 我和LD,一人pension,LD 401是否max out? Max out 有什么大的缺点?还是说钱自己投 : 资比较好?谢谢
O*o
71 楼
我觉得对多数人来说并不是抵消。工作的时候挣的钱比退休的时候拿出来的钱要多。 tax bracket大不一样。如果家庭收入20万以上,which is very common in double income Chinese families, 就已经触到30%+ tax bracket了。退休的时候很少有人会 一年拿20万出来花。
我觉得你的结论正确,但main point (upfront tax saving, which accounts for most of differences) 是不对的。事实上,放401k与放taxable account造成的差别, 是由于已被收过税的taxable account在投资过程中的增值部分又被收了一次capital gain tax。虽然capital gain 税率比income tax多数情况下低,但也是不小的数目, 而无论是Roth还是traditional 401k,capital gain tax 都给免了。 而且,照你这个main point,就会得出traditional 401k 比Roth 401k好,因为前者有 up front saving。而事实是如果income tax rate相同的话,支付income tax后再投资 20年(比如 Roth 401k)和先投资20年后再支付income tax(比如traditional 401k),两 者收益是一样的。
saving
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】 : 公式正确, 说明也都正确。 : 不过你没有注意我的帖子的main point: : 401k 比 buy-and-hold 好(在那些假设的情况下), 主要是因为upfront tax saving : , which accounts for most of differences between the two options.
【在 O**o 的大作中提到】 : 我觉得对多数人来说并不是抵消。工作的时候挣的钱比退休的时候拿出来的钱要多。 : tax bracket大不一样。如果家庭收入20万以上,which is very common in double : income Chinese families, 就已经触到30%+ tax bracket了。退休的时候很少有人会 : 一年拿20万出来花。
【在 j**********7 的大作中提到】 : Roth IRA may also be taxed after 20 years. : U.S. govt can change the game, even it's politically risky.
h*n
92 楼
我自己没有HSA,具体到实际操作时,公司是否允许你同时有HSA/FSA我不知道,但是 IRS确实是允许你同时有HSA/FSA的,只不过不是所有的expense都可以从FSA reimburse. 以下是IRS原话:http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p969.pdf , page4 An employee covered by an HDHP and a health FSA or an HRA that pays or reimburses qualified medical expenses generally cannot make contributions to an HSA. Health FSAs and HRAs are discussed later. However, an employee can make contributions to an HSA while covered under an HDHP and one or more of the following arrangements. Limited-purpose health FSA or HRA. These arrangements can pay or reimburse the items listed earlier under Other health coverage except long-term care. Also, these arrangements can pay or reimburse preventive care expenses because they can be paid without having to satisfy the deductible. Post-deductible health FSA or HRA. These arrangements do not pay or reimburse any medical expenses incurred before the minimum annual deductible amount is met. The deductible for these arrangements does not have to be the same as the deductible for the HDHP, but benefits may not be provided before the minimum annual deductible amount is met.
【在 u***e 的大作中提到】 : 不能同时有HSA和FSA吧。 : : flexible
S*C
93 楼
Most FSAs are NOT Limited-purpose health FSA.
reimburse. to an .
【在 h***n 的大作中提到】 : 我自己没有HSA,具体到实际操作时,公司是否允许你同时有HSA/FSA我不知道,但是 : IRS确实是允许你同时有HSA/FSA的,只不过不是所有的expense都可以从FSA reimburse. : 以下是IRS原话:http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p969.pdf , page4 : An employee covered by an HDHP and a health FSA or an HRA that pays or : reimburses qualified medical expenses generally cannot make contributions to : an HSA. Health FSAs and HRAs are discussed later. : However, an employee can make contributions to an HSA while covered under an : HDHP and one or more of the following arrangements. : Limited-purpose health FSA or HRA. These arrangements can pay or reimburse : the items listed earlier under Other health coverage except long-term care.
【在 r****m 的大作中提到】 : 1. There is RMD requirement for 401K : 2. You will pay income tax on the gain : 3. Your fund choices suck : 4. All available funds have high expenses : 5. Not flexible when you need money