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计算机科学的定位问题
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计算机科学的定位问题# CS - 计算机科学
c*c
1 楼
嗯，不是flamebait，就是陈述一下俺自己的看法，听听大家的意见。有不少其他
学科的人从心里看不起计算机科学，这个对大家来说应该不是秘密。俺觉得呢，
看不起CS的人有三种情况：有的是出于对自己学科的热爱，觉得其他什么学科都
等而下之（以前有位EE学Telecom的朋友有句话给我印象特别深：我们搞Telecom
是最高的research，你们CS是为我们服务的）；有的是出于无知，只是编过一些
程序，对CS没多少实质了解，或人云亦云，只听周围不少人看不起CS，就觉得那
东西真是没什么了不起；还有的则可能有些嫉妒心理在作怪，因为前些年IT经济
火爆的时候工作CS比多数专业工作好找，起薪可能也高一些，导致一些其它专业
的人心理不平衡。
关于第一种情况呢，一方面热爱自己学科当然不是坏事，另一方面瞧不起其他学
科自然也显得偏狭。搞纯数学的也许会觉得数学的纯洁美丽是至高无上的，其他
什么物理化学计算机都是世俗无聊的东西；搞物理的也许会觉得老子研究的才是
世界物质的本原规律，数学只是工具而已，可用的部分老子当然用，用不着的部
分纯粹是浪费。。。等等等等，每个学科都可以有一套看不起其他学科的说法。
avatar
s*e
2 楼
呵呵，码了这么多字，赞一把。

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，不是flamebait，就是陈述一下俺自己的看法，听听大家的意见。有不少其他
: 学科的人从心里看不起计算机科学，这个对大家来说应该不是秘密。俺觉得呢，
: 看不起CS的人有三种情况：有的是出于对自己学科的热爱，觉得其他什么学科都
: 等而下之（以前有位EE学Telecom的朋友有句话给我印象特别深：我们搞Telecom
: 是最高的research，你们CS是为我们服务的）；有的是出于无知，只是编过一些
: 程序，对CS没多少实质了解，或人云亦云，只听周围不少人看不起CS，就觉得那
: 东西真是没什么了不起；还有的则可能有些嫉妒心理在作怪，因为前些年IT经济
: 火爆的时候工作CS比多数专业工作好找，起薪可能也高一些，导致一些其它专业
: 的人心理不平衡。
: 关于第一种情况呢，一方面热爱自己学科当然不是坏事，另一方面瞧不起其他学
avatar
w*g
3 楼

同样的数学,物理也是为其他专业服务的.
工程是为商业服务的.
商业是为老板服务.
最终的收益人还不是资本家.
所以学什么都是狗屁. 好了吧.

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，不是flamebait，就是陈述一下俺自己的看法，听听大家的意见。有不少其他
: 学科的人从心里看不起计算机科学，这个对大家来说应该不是秘密。俺觉得呢，
: 看不起CS的人有三种情况：有的是出于对自己学科的热爱，觉得其他什么学科都
: 等而下之（以前有位EE学Telecom的朋友有句话给我印象特别深：我们搞Telecom
: 是最高的research，你们CS是为我们服务的）；有的是出于无知，只是编过一些
: 程序，对CS没多少实质了解，或人云亦云，只听周围不少人看不起CS，就觉得那
: 东西真是没什么了不起；还有的则可能有些嫉妒心理在作怪，因为前些年IT经济
: 火爆的时候工作CS比多数专业工作好找，起薪可能也高一些，导致一些其它专业
: 的人心理不平衡。
: 关于第一种情况呢，一方面热爱自己学科当然不是坏事，另一方面瞧不起其他学
avatar
a*e
4 楼
too long to make your point clear, hehe. CS
is nothing more than a branch of applied mathmatics

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，不是flamebait，就是陈述一下俺自己的看法，听听大家的意见。有不少其他
: 学科的人从心里看不起计算机科学，这个对大家来说应该不是秘密。俺觉得呢，
: 看不起CS的人有三种情况：有的是出于对自己学科的热爱，觉得其他什么学科都
: 等而下之（以前有位EE学Telecom的朋友有句话给我印象特别深：我们搞Telecom
: 是最高的research，你们CS是为我们服务的）；有的是出于无知，只是编过一些
: 程序，对CS没多少实质了解，或人云亦云，只听周围不少人看不起CS，就觉得那
: 东西真是没什么了不起；还有的则可能有些嫉妒心理在作怪，因为前些年IT经济
: 火爆的时候工作CS比多数专业工作好找，起薪可能也高一些，导致一些其它专业
: 的人心理不平衡。
: 关于第一种情况呢，一方面热爱自己学科当然不是坏事，另一方面瞧不起其他学
avatar
j*h
5 楼
any engineering is nothing more than a branch of applied mathmatics.

【在 a*********e 的大作中提到】
: too long to make your point clear, hehe. CS
: is nothing more than a branch of applied mathmatics
avatar
b*n
6 楼
right. There are only two branches of science: math, and applied math.

【在 j*****h 的大作中提到】
: any engineering is nothing more than a branch of applied mathmatics.
avatar
a*e
7 楼
not actually, you can not consider chemical engineering as
a branch of applied mathmatics.

【在 j*****h 的大作中提到】
: any engineering is nothing more than a branch of applied mathmatics.
avatar
a*e
8 楼
top level only has two: physics, math.

【在 b***n 的大作中提到】
: right. There are only two branches of science: math, and applied math.
avatar
a*n
9 楼
math is not science but arts

【在 b***n 的大作中提到】
: right. There are only two branches of science: math, and applied math.
avatar
R*r
10 楼
麻烦顺便总结一把。。

【在 s***e 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵，码了这么多字，赞一把。
avatar
R*r
11 楼
either physics, or stamp collecting...

【在 a*********e 的大作中提到】
: top level only has two: physics, math.
avatar
b*n
12 楼
I think biology is also science.

【在 a*********e 的大作中提到】
: top level only has two: physics, math.
avatar
T*n
13 楼
A*算深刻的算法吗？

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，不是flamebait，就是陈述一下俺自己的看法，听听大家的意见。有不少其他
: 学科的人从心里看不起计算机科学，这个对大家来说应该不是秘密。俺觉得呢，
: 看不起CS的人有三种情况：有的是出于对自己学科的热爱，觉得其他什么学科都
: 等而下之（以前有位EE学Telecom的朋友有句话给我印象特别深：我们搞Telecom
: 是最高的research，你们CS是为我们服务的）；有的是出于无知，只是编过一些
: 程序，对CS没多少实质了解，或人云亦云，只听周围不少人看不起CS，就觉得那
: 东西真是没什么了不起；还有的则可能有些嫉妒心理在作怪，因为前些年IT经济
: 火爆的时候工作CS比多数专业工作好找，起薪可能也高一些，导致一些其它专业
: 的人心理不平衡。
: 关于第一种情况呢，一方面热爱自己学科当然不是坏事，另一方面瞧不起其他学
avatar
a*r
14 楼
math is not Science.

【在 a*********e 的大作中提到】
: top level only has two: physics, math.
avatar
a*r
15 楼
frankly speaking, CS should not be science. it should be named
as something like computermatics. science usually refers to
the study of characteristics of the nature and human society.

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，不是flamebait，就是陈述一下俺自己的看法，听听大家的意见。有不少其他
: 学科的人从心里看不起计算机科学，这个对大家来说应该不是秘密。俺觉得呢，
: 看不起CS的人有三种情况：有的是出于对自己学科的热爱，觉得其他什么学科都
: 等而下之（以前有位EE学Telecom的朋友有句话给我印象特别深：我们搞Telecom
: 是最高的research，你们CS是为我们服务的）；有的是出于无知，只是编过一些
: 程序，对CS没多少实质了解，或人云亦云，只听周围不少人看不起CS，就觉得那
: 东西真是没什么了不起；还有的则可能有些嫉妒心理在作怪，因为前些年IT经济
: 火爆的时候工作CS比多数专业工作好找，起薪可能也高一些，导致一些其它专业
: 的人心理不平衡。
: 关于第一种情况呢，一方面热爱自己学科当然不是坏事，另一方面瞧不起其他学
avatar
w*g
16 楼

science doesn't study human society...

【在 a**r 的大作中提到】
: frankly speaking, CS should not be science. it should be named
: as something like computermatics. science usually refers to
: the study of characteristics of the nature and human society.
avatar
b*n
17 楼
甭搅合了.
CS是不是Science无所谓. 就算不是science也不低人一等, 是science也不见得高人一头.

【在 a**r 的大作中提到】
: frankly speaking, CS should not be science. it should be named
: as something like computermatics. science usually refers to
: the study of characteristics of the nature and human society.
avatar
a*r
18 楼
there is something called social science

【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
:
: science doesn't study human society...
avatar
a*r
19 楼
I did not say science is superior or not.
but math and applied are definitely not science.

【在 b***n 的大作中提到】
: 甭搅合了.
: CS是不是Science无所谓. 就算不是science也不低人一等, 是science也不见得高人一头.
avatar
j*h
20 楼
If Chemical engineering is not a branch of applied mathmatics, then it
is a misnomer to be named as "engineering".

【在 a*********e 的大作中提到】
: not actually, you can not consider chemical engineering as
: a branch of applied mathmatics.
avatar
w*g
21 楼
social science is not science.

【在 a**r 的大作中提到】
: there is something called social science
avatar
n*t
22 楼
du'de，you are kidding.
anyway, you can say watering is also a science.

【在 a**r 的大作中提到】
: I did not say science is superior or not.
: but math and applied are definitely not science.
avatar
n*t
23 楼

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lol, anyway, you can give any definition you want.

【在 a**r 的大作中提到】
: frankly speaking, CS should not be science. it should be named
: as something like computermatics. science usually refers to
: the study of characteristics of the nature and human society.
avatar
r*y
24 楼
most of CS dept in US are within Engineering schools.
why science? studying CS in the engineering point of view is fine and even
better for serving the society...

【在 b***n 的大作中提到】
: 甭搅合了.
: CS是不是Science无所谓. 就算不是science也不低人一等, 是science也不见得高人一头.
avatar
f*y
25 楼
感觉算作Applied Science更合适，毕竟同数理化生这些pure science还是有很大区别的

【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: most of CS dept in US are within Engineering schools.
: why science? studying CS in the engineering point of view is fine and even
: better for serving the society...
avatar
l*n
26 楼
小胡批示：文不对题，或者说，思路混乱，只有批驳，没有观点

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，不是flamebait，就是陈述一下俺自己的看法，听听大家的意见。有不少其他
: 学科的人从心里看不起计算机科学，这个对大家来说应该不是秘密。俺觉得呢，
: 看不起CS的人有三种情况：有的是出于对自己学科的热爱，觉得其他什么学科都
: 等而下之（以前有位EE学Telecom的朋友有句话给我印象特别深：我们搞Telecom
: 是最高的research，你们CS是为我们服务的）；有的是出于无知，只是编过一些
: 程序，对CS没多少实质了解，或人云亦云，只听周围不少人看不起CS，就觉得那
: 东西真是没什么了不起；还有的则可能有些嫉妒心理在作怪，因为前些年IT经济
: 火爆的时候工作CS比多数专业工作好找，起薪可能也高一些，导致一些其它专业
: 的人心理不平衡。
: 关于第一种情况呢，一方面热爱自己学科当然不是坏事，另一方面瞧不起其他学
avatar
c*c
27 楼
In general, science is about "what is something,"
and engineering is about "how to do something."
CS is kind of a combination of both, since on one
hand automatic computing system has just been
around for a few decades and there're still quite
some fundamental questions we don't yet know the
answer about, such as whether P==NP, and studying
fundamental characteristics of computing systems
certainly qualifies as science in the spirit of
"what is something". On the other hand this field
currently

【在 f****y 的大作中提到】
: 感觉算作Applied Science更合适，毕竟同数理化生这些pure science还是有很大区别的
avatar
f*r
28 楼
There is foundational difference between traditional science and
computer science. Traditional science is related to nature and tools,
(tools are somethings about how to transform one kind of power to another.)
but computer science is related to artifacts. It is man-made scenario,
and tool development does not attempt to utilize nature power, just
attempt to meet artifact's needs.
Thus it is hard to say if there is any foundamental problems in computer
sciences. It is mostly related to tradeoff.

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: In general, science is about "what is something,"
: and engineering is about "how to do something."
: CS is kind of a combination of both, since on one
: hand automatic computing system has just been
: around for a few decades and there're still quite
: some fundamental questions we don't yet know the
: answer about, such as whether P==NP, and studying
: fundamental characteristics of computing systems
: certainly qualifies as science in the spirit of
: "what is something". On the other hand this field
avatar
w*g
29 楼
science is the easy, boring, and useless part of CS.
it is the fat of the meat.

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: In general, science is about "what is something,"
: and engineering is about "how to do something."
: CS is kind of a combination of both, since on one
: hand automatic computing system has just been
: around for a few decades and there're still quite
: some fundamental questions we don't yet know the
: answer about, such as whether P==NP, and studying
: fundamental characteristics of computing systems
: certainly qualifies as science in the spirit of
: "what is something". On the other hand this field
avatar
f*r
30 楼
hehe, I like this point. In fact, many mathematicians think that math is
foundamentally different with physics, chemistry, biology, etc. Math is a
kind of fine art. Of course, this is only for pure math. Applied math is
totally different math.

【在 a**r 的大作中提到】
: I did not say science is superior or not.
: but math and applied are definitely not science.
avatar
w*g
31 楼
what branch of math deals with computation complexity?

【在 f*****r 的大作中提到】
: There is foundational difference between traditional science and
: computer science. Traditional science is related to nature and tools,
: (tools are somethings about how to transform one kind of power to another.)
: but computer science is related to artifacts. It is man-made scenario,
: and tool development does not attempt to utilize nature power, just
: attempt to meet artifact's needs.
: Thus it is hard to say if there is any foundamental problems in computer
: sciences. It is mostly related to tradeoff.
avatar
f*r
32 楼
Is discrete math not math? How about computational math, which is a kind
of applied math?

【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
: what branch of math deals with computation complexity?
avatar
w*g
33 楼
are you sure discrete math or computational math dealing with computation
complexity?

【在 f*****r 的大作中提到】
: Is discrete math not math? How about computational math, which is a kind
: of applied math?
avatar
c*c
34 楼
Well, if you take every field apart like this,
probably no field would be able to still stand
as a field, hehe.

【在 f*****r 的大作中提到】
: There is foundational difference between traditional science and
: computer science. Traditional science is related to nature and tools,
: (tools are somethings about how to transform one kind of power to another.)
: but computer science is related to artifacts. It is man-made scenario,
: and tool development does not attempt to utilize nature power, just
: attempt to meet artifact's needs.
: Thus it is hard to say if there is any foundamental problems in computer
: sciences. It is mostly related to tradeoff.
avatar
j*n
35 楼
good,
赞

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: Well, if you take every field apart like this,
: probably no field would be able to still stand
: as a field, hehe.
avatar
j*h
36 楼
Let me quote my advisor's definition, sicence is about finding
the truth of the nature, engieering is about making better gadgets.
In that sense, "computer science" should be "computer engineering".

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
: In general, science is about "what is something,"
: and engineering is about "how to do something."
: CS is kind of a combination of both, since on one
: hand automatic computing system has just been
: around for a few decades and there're still quite
: some fundamental questions we don't yet know the
: answer about, such as whether P==NP, and studying
: fundamental characteristics of computing systems
: certainly qualifies as science in the spirit of
: "what is something". On the other hand this field
avatar
f*h
37 楼
no science is science except mathematics. physics, chemistry..., linguistics, and theatre
are all applied math, let alone cs. if they are not applied math, they are not closer to
science at all. science is not about nature, it's about nothing. say math is about
structures which you can perceive but cannot see or feel in mother nature.
according to Prof. Yang's framework, engineering falls into 实验, premature theory and
empiricism fall into 唯象解释, physics, chemistry... fall into 理论, finally, the on

【在 f*****r 的大作中提到】
: There is foundational difference between traditional science and
: computer science. Traditional science is related to nature and tools,
: (tools are somethings about how to transform one kind of power to another.)
: but computer science is related to artifacts. It is man-made scenario,
: and tool development does not attempt to utilize nature power, just
: attempt to meet artifact's needs.
: Thus it is hard to say if there is any foundamental problems in computer
: sciences. It is mostly related to tradeoff.
avatar
w*g
38 楼
engineering also has lots of science in it.
it is just that engineering has to make something work while science
only needs to claim something might work.

【在 j*****h 的大作中提到】
: Let me quote my advisor's definition, sicence is about finding
: the truth of the nature, engieering is about making better gadgets.
: In that sense, "computer science" should be "computer engineering".
avatar
p*e
39 楼
就好像整天争论大学排名一样，浪费时间。
还是有时间好好看书和paper, 多发一些有内涵的论文，才不枉了做了这么多年的学生。
avatar
w*T
40 楼
I agree with you.

【在 p********e 的大作中提到】
: 就好像整天争论大学排名一样，浪费时间。
: 还是有时间好好看书和paper, 多发一些有内涵的论文，才不枉了做了这么多年的学生。
avatar
r*n
41 楼
我觉得有时间多游乐游乐.
发的都是狗屁论文, 自欺欺人而已.

【在 p********e 的大作中提到】
: 就好像整天争论大学排名一样，浪费时间。
: 还是有时间好好看书和paper, 多发一些有内涵的论文，才不枉了做了这么多年的学生。
avatar
h*t
42 楼
decidability is a foundamental problem raised by computer science.
basically it points out what a machine can do and what a machine cannot do.
the interesting fact is, a machine can never verify or determine another
machine, provided they have the same computation power. this truth of
nature shall guide every research as well as researcher in computer
science.

【在 f*****r 的大作中提到】
: There is foundational difference between traditional science and
: computer science. Traditional science is related to nature and tools,
: (tools are somethings about how to transform one kind of power to another.)
: but computer science is related to artifacts. It is man-made scenario,
: and tool development does not attempt to utilize nature power, just
: attempt to meet artifact's needs.
: Thus it is hard to say if there is any foundamental problems in computer
: sciences. It is mostly related to tradeoff.
avatar
f*p
43 楼
哈哈，不发狗屁论文没法毕业啊。

【在 r********n 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得有时间多游乐游乐.
: 发的都是狗屁论文, 自欺欺人而已.
avatar
s*o
44 楼
"it is just that engineering has to make something work while science
only needs to claim something might work"
－－　must -----

【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
: engineering also has lots of science in it.
: it is just that engineering has to make something work while science
: only needs to claim something might work.
avatar
s*o
45 楼
prove NP = P or NP != P "easy, boring, and useless part of CS"

【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
: engineering also has lots of science in it.
: it is just that engineering has to make something work while science
: only needs to claim something might work.
avatar
w*g
46 楼
你能证么?
你不能证, 评什么说这就是你做的伟大工作?
你除了NP ? P, 还能举什么例子.
我懒的于你胡缠. 等别人上来损你算了.

【在 s*****o 的大作中提到】
: prove NP = P or NP != P "easy, boring, and useless part of CS"
avatar
s*o
47 楼
不是你说的科学是　"easy, boring, and useless part of CS"

【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
: 你能证么?
: 你不能证, 评什么说这就是你做的伟大工作?
: 你除了NP ? P, 还能举什么例子.
: 我懒的于你胡缠. 等别人上来损你算了.
avatar
w*g
48 楼
are you working on science?
if you are working on science, then it must be easy, boring, and useless.

【在 s*****o 的大作中提到】
: 不是你说的科学是　"easy, boring, and useless part of CS"
avatar
s*o
49 楼
我不所谓work 不 work 在science 上。
但是我至少不说人家work 在science 上就"easy, boring,and useless”。
对于science, 我至少要　appreciate　一下。

【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
: are you working on science?
: if you are working on science, then it must be easy, boring, and useless.
avatar
t*s
50 楼
he knows nothing about science

【在 s*****o 的大作中提到】
: "it is just that engineering has to make something work while science
: only needs to claim something might work"
: －－　must -----
avatar
s*o
51 楼
hehe ,我已经不和wideThing吵了，大家都回去休息吧。

【在 t*s 的大作中提到】
: he knows nothing about science
avatar
p*y
52 楼
CS 不是科学，它不反映客观世界的规律和本质。
既然不是科学，CS自身没有永恒的理论（象数学 物理那样持久的真理性），所以没有能持
久的 理论体系。
作为技术，CS更新非常快，既然没有理论的前后承接性，所以就更象奇技淫巧。所以经验
不值钱。

【在 s***e 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵，码了这么多字，赞一把。
avatar
f*p
53 楼
斗胆问一句，什么叫奇迹引桥？

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: CS 不是科学，它不反映客观世界的规律和本质。
: 既然不是科学，CS自身没有永恒的理论（象数学 物理那样持久的真理性），所以没有能持
: 久的 理论体系。
: 作为技术，CS更新非常快，既然没有理论的前后承接性，所以就更象奇技淫巧。所以经验
: 不值钱。
avatar
s*o
54 楼
吓死我了，不知不觉已经奇迹淫巧了无数年。

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: CS 不是科学，它不反映客观世界的规律和本质。
: 既然不是科学，CS自身没有永恒的理论（象数学 物理那样持久的真理性），所以没有能持
: 久的 理论体系。
: 作为技术，CS更新非常快，既然没有理论的前后承接性，所以就更象奇技淫巧。所以经验
: 不值钱。
avatar
s*o
55 楼
建议本版改名“奇技淫巧版”

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: CS 不是科学，它不反映客观世界的规律和本质。
: 既然不是科学，CS自身没有永恒的理论（象数学 物理那样持久的真理性），所以没有能持
: 久的 理论体系。
: 作为技术，CS更新非常快，既然没有理论的前后承接性，所以就更象奇技淫巧。所以经验
: 不值钱。
avatar
l*g
56 楼
CS has theory: there is a branch called theoretical computer science.
It studies, generally speaking, the intrisic complexity of computing problems.
If you have time, take a look at this article (to appear in Communications of
the ACM):
http://theorymatters.org/documents/arorachazelle.pdf
What you are talking about are computer engineering. It is true that many branches
of CS are engineering, but you cannot ignore its science part.
Its science part studies the "computing phenomena", which is som

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: CS 不是科学，它不反映客观世界的规律和本质。
: 既然不是科学，CS自身没有永恒的理论（象数学 物理那样持久的真理性），所以没有能持
: 久的 理论体系。
: 作为技术，CS更新非常快，既然没有理论的前后承接性，所以就更象奇技淫巧。所以经验
: 不值钱。
avatar
w*g
57 楼
actually, I don't think people would agree on what theoretical computer
science includes.
is it about algorithms and complexity?
is it about logic and lambda calculus?
is it about numerical analysis?
is it about scientific computation?
is it about combinatorics or computational geometry?
or maybe some will even include compilers etc.

【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: CS has theory: there is a branch called theoretical computer science.
: It studies, generally speaking, the intrisic complexity of computing problems.
: If you have time, take a look at this article (to appear in Communications of
: the ACM):
: http://theorymatters.org/documents/arorachazelle.pdf
: What you are talking about are computer engineering. It is true that many branches
: of CS are engineering, but you cannot ignore its science part.
: Its science part studies the "computing phenomena", which is som
avatar
f*p
58 楼
The first two are enough.

【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
: actually, I don't think people would agree on what theoretical computer
: science includes.
: is it about algorithms and complexity?
: is it about logic and lambda calculus?
: is it about numerical analysis?
: is it about scientific computation?
: is it about combinatorics or computational geometry?
: or maybe some will even include compilers etc.
avatar
p*y
59 楼
i read the paper below. it does not make much sense.

If you have time, take a look at this article (to appear in Communications of
the ACM):
http://theorymatters.org/documents/arorachazelle.pdf

【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
: actually, I don't think people would agree on what theoretical computer
: science includes.
: is it about algorithms and complexity?
: is it about logic and lambda calculus?
: is it about numerical analysis?
: is it about scientific computation?
: is it about combinatorics or computational geometry?
: or maybe some will even include compilers etc.
avatar
c*c
60 楼

That's a traditional description of science. But are you saying
computers are not a part of the objective world? CS does study
the objective properties and laws of automatic computing systems.
If what you mean is computers are built by humans, but only those
naturally formed phenomena are the subjects of science, then this
would become a word game, since I could argue that humans were
evolved naturally anyway, why the creation of humans cannot be
regarded as the second-order creation of nature.

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: CS 不是科学，它不反映客观世界的规律和本质。
: 既然不是科学，CS自身没有永恒的理论（象数学 物理那样持久的真理性），所以没有能持
: 久的 理论体系。
: 作为技术，CS更新非常快，既然没有理论的前后承接性，所以就更象奇技淫巧。所以经验
: 不值钱。
avatar
d*a
61 楼
well said. zan!

【在 c**c 的大作中提到】
:
: That's a traditional description of science. But are you saying
: computers are not a part of the objective world? CS does study
: the objective properties and laws of automatic computing systems.
: If what you mean is computers are built by humans, but only those
: naturally formed phenomena are the subjects of science, then this
: would become a word game, since I could argue that humans were
: evolved naturally anyway, why the creation of humans cannot be
: regarded as the second-order creation of nature.
avatar
c*c
62 楼
望继续提高英文水平

【在 f*****r 的大作中提到】
: There is foundational difference between traditional science and
: computer science. Traditional science is related to nature and tools,
: (tools are somethings about how to transform one kind of power to another.)
: but computer science is related to artifacts. It is man-made scenario,
: and tool development does not attempt to utilize nature power, just
: attempt to meet artifact's needs.
: Thus it is hard to say if there is any foundamental problems in computer
: sciences. It is mostly related to tradeoff.
avatar
l*g
63 楼
That is fine.
What I am saying is that CS has its "science" side. You may not know this
because you only looked at its "engineering" side. You can read some
introductory texts on theoretical computer science.
The theory side of CS is just as beautiful (and lasting) as mathematics.
> i read the paper below. it does not make much sense
> CS 不是科学，它不反映客观世界的规律和本质。
> 既然不是科学，CS自身没有永恒的理论（象数学 物理那样持久的真理性），所以没有能持
> 久的 理论体系。
> 作为技术，CS更新非常快，既然没有理论的前后承接性，所以就更象奇技淫巧。所以经验
> 不值钱。

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: i read the paper below. it does not make much sense.
:
: If you have time, take a look at this article (to appear in Communications of
: the ACM):
: http://theorymatters.org/documents/arorachazelle.pdf
avatar
w*g
64 楼
complexity side of CS is nuts.
needs IQ > 130 to understand some deep analysis.

【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: That is fine.
: What I am saying is that CS has its "science" side. You may not know this
: because you only looked at its "engineering" side. You can read some
: introductory texts on theoretical computer science.
: The theory side of CS is just as beautiful (and lasting) as mathematics.
: > i read the paper below. it does not make much sense
: > CS 不是科学，它不反映客观世界的规律和本质。
: > 既然不是科学，CS自身没有永恒的理论（象数学 物理那样持久的真理性），所以没有能持
: > 久的 理论体系。
: > 作为技术，CS更新非常快，既然没有理论的前后承接性，所以就更象奇技淫巧。所以经验
avatar
f*p
65 楼
CS Ph.D 40岁还在postdoc?

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: i read the paper below. it does not make much sense.
:
: If you have time, take a look at this article (to appear in Communications of
: the ACM):
: http://theorymatters.org/documents/arorachazelle.pdf
avatar
f*y
66 楼
找不到faculty position，只能靠做完一个postdoc再做另一个postdoc维持在美国的身份

【在 f*****p 的大作中提到】
: CS Ph.D 40岁还在postdoc?
avatar
f*p
67 楼
没见过。

【在 f****y 的大作中提到】
: 找不到faculty position，只能靠做完一个postdoc再做另一个postdoc维持在美国的身份
avatar
f*y
68 楼
cs的确实很少，biology的不少吧？cs的总找不到faculty position估计就进industrial了，呵呵。

【在 f*****p 的大作中提到】
: 没见过。
avatar
p*y
69 楼
进了industrial, 以前的research不久就bye bye. 值吗？

cs的确实很少，biology的不少吧？cs的总找不到faculty position估计就进industrial了
，呵呵。

【在 f****y 的大作中提到】
: cs的确实很少，biology的不少吧？cs的总找不到faculty position估计就进industrial了，呵呵。
avatar
f*y
70 楼
make a living啊。。。

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: 进了industrial, 以前的research不久就bye bye. 值吗？
:
: cs的确实很少，biology的不少吧？cs的总找不到faculty position估计就进industrial了
: ，呵呵。
avatar
p*y
71 楼
为什么不早点儿master毕业去make living? 在research上浪费那么多年。

make a living啊。。。

【在 f****y 的大作中提到】
: make a living啊。。。
avatar
f*y
72 楼
你没发现很多人当学生当不够嘛。。。不进industrial仅仅是因为还想接着上学。。。

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: 为什么不早点儿master毕业去make living? 在research上浪费那么多年。
:
: make a living啊。。。
avatar
f*p
73 楼
Ph.D是一种训练。

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: 为什么不早点儿master毕业去make living? 在research上浪费那么多年。
:
: make a living啊。。。
avatar
p*y
74 楼
funny enough.

Ph.D是一种训练。

【在 f*****p 的大作中提到】
: Ph.D是一种训练。
avatar
f*p
75 楼
You've given us a lot of fun these days.

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: funny enough.
:
: Ph.D是一种训练。
avatar
p*y
76 楼
right, cs is fun.

【在 f*****p 的大作中提到】
: You've given us a lot of fun these days.
avatar
w*g
77 楼
fun 个屁. 进了这个黑洞, 就出不来了.

【在 p***y 的大作中提到】
: right, cs is fun.
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