zz华夏文明的雅利安来源——为汉人正本清源 (转载) - 未名空间MITBBS历史存档

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zz华夏文明的雅利安来源——为汉人正本清源 (转载)

zz华夏文明的雅利安来源——为汉人正本清源 (转载)# AnthroLing - 人类学和语言学

T*r2005-08-03 07:08

1 楼

【以下文字转载自 History 讨论区】
发信人: Trianger (沧海一粟), 信区: History
标题: zz华夏文明的雅利安来源——为汉人正本清源
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Aug 2 16:00:18 2005)
飞虎队：华夏文明的雅利安来源——为汉人正本清源
(博讯2004年10月29日)

d*u2005-08-03 07:08

2 楼

开始还只是觉得错误多
读到最后才发现还有政治目的，呵呵

古
，

【在 T******r 的大作中提到】

: 【以下文字转载自 History 讨论区】
: 发信人: Trianger (沧海一粟), 信区: History
: 标题: zz华夏文明的雅利安来源——为汉人正本清源
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Aug 2 16:00:18 2005)
: 飞虎队：华夏文明的雅利安来源——为汉人正本清源
: (博讯2004年10月29日)

h*g2005-08-03 07:08

3 楼

bian tai!

古
，
类

【在 T******r 的大作中提到】

E*P2005-08-03 07:08

4 楼

他要说的就是最后那些话吧
嘿嘿

【在 d*****u 的大作中提到】

: 开始还只是觉得错误多
: 读到最后才发现还有政治目的，呵呵
:
: 古
: ，

h*i2005-08-03 07:08

5 楼

"我们平常生活中看到的也是，高加索人种不论是在
体能上还是在智力上普遍都比纯粹的蒙古利亚人种要强得多，"
This is clearly BS.
It is well know in the field of psychology that East Asian, i.e. the Yellow
race, has higher IQ than White race, e.g. "The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores.
East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, both in the U. S. and in
Asia, even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture
. Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for
Whites, about 100; and for Blacks about 8

【在 T******r 的大作中提到】

d*u2005-08-03 07:08

6 楼

这个研究好像是十多年前的吧，当时争议很大
抛开其他的先不谈
从进化论的角度来说，“黑人”的内部差异远大于所谓白人和黄种人之间的差异
所以如果要把撒哈拉以南的非洲原住民算作“黑人”的话
欧亚大陆的人都是“黑人”的一支所发展出来的
如果硬要把这一支算作“主干”的话
许多黑人都是进化树上的旁支了

Scores.
in
culture

【在 h*i 的大作中提到】

: "我们平常生活中看到的也是，高加索人种不论是在
: 体能上还是在智力上普遍都比纯粹的蒙古利亚人种要强得多，"
: This is clearly BS.
: It is well know in the field of psychology that East Asian, i.e. the Yellow
: race, has higher IQ than White race, e.g. "The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores.
: East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, both in the U. S. and in
: Asia, even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture
: . Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for
: Whites, about 100; and for Blacks about 8

h*i2005-08-03 07:08

7 楼

As a psychologist, I can tell you that this is not "a' research. Psychologists
never believe in any single piece of research, any acceptable conclusion is
drawn after years of research and debate. So far, I believe most people in the
field think these findings are robust, though politically incorrect.
The so called debate was a political one, not scientific.
BTW.we are talking about the average inter-racial difference, not intro-racial
difference. So if you say the variance within Black is grea

【在 d*****u 的大作中提到】

: 这个研究好像是十多年前的吧，当时争议很大
: 抛开其他的先不谈
: 从进化论的角度来说，“黑人”的内部差异远大于所谓白人和黄种人之间的差异
: 所以如果要把撒哈拉以南的非洲原住民算作“黑人”的话
: 欧亚大陆的人都是“黑人”的一支所发展出来的
: 如果硬要把这一支算作“主干”的话
: 许多黑人都是进化树上的旁支了
:
: Scores.
: in

d*u2005-08-03 07:08

8 楼

黑人的内部差异大于黄种人、白人之间的差异
也大于黄种人、白人各自的内部差异

Psychologists
the
racial

【在 h*i 的大作中提到】

: As a psychologist, I can tell you that this is not "a' research. Psychologists
: never believe in any single piece of research, any acceptable conclusion is
: drawn after years of research and debate. So far, I believe most people in the
: field think these findings are robust, though politically incorrect.
: The so called debate was a political one, not scientific.
: BTW.we are talking about the average inter-racial difference, not intro-racial
: difference. So if you say the variance within Black is grea

d*u2005-08-03 07:08

9 楼

目前发现的平均身高最高的民族和平均身高最低的民族好像都在非洲
各种形态指数的极端也都在非洲

【在 d*****u 的大作中提到】

: 黑人的内部差异大于黄种人、白人之间的差异
: 也大于黄种人、白人各自的内部差异
:
: Psychologists
: the
: racial

h*i2005-08-03 07:08

10 楼

Right, I agree with you.
You are talking about intra-racial difference, but the book is talking about
inter-racial difference.
The fact that Black is more diverse than White and Yellow people is perfectly
in-line with the theory. No conflict at all.
This is what it is: think of three bell curves on the IQ scale (I wish I can
show you a diagram, lol). The Black curve is at the left, centered on 85
point, but its distribution the widest; 15 points to its right, there's a
White curve, less wide di

【在 d*****u 的大作中提到】

: 黑人的内部差异大于黄种人、白人之间的差异
: 也大于黄种人、白人各自的内部差异
:
: Psychologists
: the
: racial

d*u2005-08-03 07:08

11 楼

我的本意并不是说其结果与什么事实有违背的地方
只是指出一个现象
不过文化的影响还是很难消除的
就算黑人成长与良好的环境，他还是社会意义上的黑人
而且美国文化其实是很强调资质的

perfectly
's

【在 h*i 的大作中提到】

: Right, I agree with you.
: You are talking about intra-racial difference, but the book is talking about
: inter-racial difference.
: The fact that Black is more diverse than White and Yellow people is perfectly
: in-line with the theory. No conflict at all.
: This is what it is: think of three bell curves on the IQ scale (I wish I can
: show you a diagram, lol). The Black curve is at the left, centered on 85
: point, but its distribution the widest; 15 points to its right, there's a
: White curve, less wide di

j*s2005-08-03 07:08

12 楼

Could it be that East Asians and whites have better test-taking skills than
blacks? I am not a psycologist, but I think "intelligence" is such an
ambiguous term to be measured by a single test designed by a group of scholars
.

Scores.
in
culture

【在 h*i 的大作中提到】

d*u2005-08-03 07:08

13 楼

不管这个IQ的实际内涵是什么，我还是相信平均来说黑人的推理、抽象等能力差一些
非洲大部分民族在20世纪以前都是hunting and gathering society
这种生产方式是对当地自然环境的一种适应
但是从另一个角度来说对人的智力选择就不那么严酷了
欧洲和亚洲则不同
人们必须适应四季的变迁，适应各种不同的自然条件
发展处文明以后更是有复杂的社会形式
推理、抽象能力差的个体很难顺利地生存、繁衍
不过这都是就平均的情况来说的
也没多少根据

scholars

【在 j****s 的大作中提到】

: Could it be that East Asians and whites have better test-taking skills than
: blacks? I am not a psycologist, but I think "intelligence" is such an
: ambiguous term to be measured by a single test designed by a group of scholars
: .
:
: Scores.
: in
: culture

h*i2005-08-03 07:08

14 楼

1. These results are not from a "single" test. There are many different kind
of IQ tests. Some of them (so called culture independent tests) do not involve
any knowledge at all, some of them ask people to manipulate objects, some of them ask people to look at pictures, When all tests support the similar results pattern, we know there must be something real. That's how psychologists draw conclusions.
2. If the tests are good (good validity and reliability, read a psychometric
article to understan

【在 j****s 的大作中提到】

h*i2005-08-03 07:08

15 楼

You are right. Also, who's to say that in the future, the trend would not
reverse? If inter-racial breading remain rare and environment is changed.
Evolution can do wonders.

【在 d*****u 的大作中提到】

: 不管这个IQ的实际内涵是什么，我还是相信平均来说黑人的推理、抽象等能力差一些
: 非洲大部分民族在20世纪以前都是hunting and gathering society
: 这种生产方式是对当地自然环境的一种适应
: 但是从另一个角度来说对人的智力选择就不那么严酷了
: 欧洲和亚洲则不同
: 人们必须适应四季的变迁，适应各种不同的自然条件
: 发展处文明以后更是有复杂的社会形式
: 推理、抽象能力差的个体很难顺利地生存、繁衍
: 不过这都是就平均的情况来说的
: 也没多少根据

h*i2005-08-03 07:08

16 楼

I actually think it is possible that Chinese territory used to be populated by
Whites if the archeology evidences this author cites are valid. However, I
comes to an opposite conclusion to this author.
The fact these Whites are now pushed out of Chinese territory only support the
superiority of Yellow race. Combining with the knowledge that Yellow race has
higher intelligence than Whites on average, this should not be a surprising
result.

古
，
类

【在 T******r 的大作中提到】

j*s2005-08-03 07:08

17 楼

Interesting. It sounds that research on this issue is pretty solid. However,
what I want to argue is that the contemporary world is defined by Europeans
and their descendants. Most people,
including whites, Asians and even blacks, tend to think in the frame of
western value system.
The words such as "intelligence", "superiority" would have different meanings
in different cultural context and in different group of people. For example,
in ancient China, the government recruited talents by a nation

【在 h*i 的大作中提到】

: 1. These results are not from a "single" test. There are many different kind
: of IQ tests. Some of them (so called culture independent tests) do not involve
: any knowledge at all, some of them ask people to manipulate objects, some of them ask people to look at pictures, When all tests support the similar results pattern, we know there must be something real. That's how psychologists draw conclusions.
: 2. If the tests are good (good validity and reliability, read a psychometric
: article to understan

d*u2005-08-03 07:08

18 楼

这个问题说来是很复杂的
虽然人类学里面盛行所谓cultural relativism
但真正能做到完全relativism还是很难的
有些价值不能不让人觉得是普适的
比如任何社会都赞赏“聪明”的人
各族传说里都有些被推崇的智者形象
当然，什么样的人是聪明的，会随时代有所改变
古代中国重视人文而忽略科技
当代中国重理轻文，社会科学停滞，这是很大的变化
但是不变的东西也是很显然的

meanings
essay
,
In

【在 j****s 的大作中提到】

: Interesting. It sounds that research on this issue is pretty solid. However,
: what I want to argue is that the contemporary world is defined by Europeans
: and their descendants. Most people,
: including whites, Asians and even blacks, tend to think in the frame of
: western value system.
: The words such as "intelligence", "superiority" would have different meanings
: in different cultural context and in different group of people. For example,
: in ancient China, the government recruited talents by a nation

h*i2005-08-03 07:08

19 楼

Intelligence Test is not a skill test. A good IQ test should not be influnced
by culture background of the testees. For example, East Asian outperform
White people on IQ tests, but all IQ tests are developed by White people.
In fact, the format and the questions of IQ tests do not matter at all. All we
care about are the reliability (e.g. if we test an individual again with the
same test after a period of time, he/she should get about the same score) and
validity (e.g. test score does predict

【在 j****s 的大作中提到】