读top研究生贴有感 - 未名空间MITBBS历史存档

P*t2012-11-20 08:11

1 楼

满足这么多牛B条件的人，我真心觉得很牛。觉得这么牛的人，年薪不给２０万，至少
也得给１０万吧。
泥麻，这样top的研究生毕业后，一样还是３万７一年。就不要jjww什么top 不top了，
top之后仍然是个极品吊丝，不要开玩笑了，早早转行是正经。
------------------
发信人: wonderlich (左岸，遁去), 信区: Biology
标题: 究竟什么样才算top研究生？
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Nov 18 11:40:10 2012, 美东)
我觉得
（1）要有很强的self-motivation；
（2）要有critical thinking，包括对导师的意见；
（3）要有独立提出问题（决策力）并解决问题的能力（行动力）；
（4）要有其他基本的听说读写能力；
（5）要有基本的科学道德和贯通各科学领域的common sense；
（6）要有一定的科学品味和持之以恒的勇气。
如果再有
（7）与人融洽相处的能力，
基本上就是一个potentially well influential的科学家。

b*n2012-11-20 08:11

2 楼

原帖没想跟你讨论这个主题。

【在 P******t 的大作中提到】

: 满足这么多牛B条件的人，我真心觉得很牛。觉得这么牛的人，年薪不给２０万，至少
: 也得给１０万吧。
: 泥麻，这样top的研究生毕业后，一样还是３万７一年。就不要jjww什么top 不top了，
: top之后仍然是个极品吊丝，不要开玩笑了，早早转行是正经。
: ------------------
: 发信人: wonderlich (左岸，遁去), 信区: Biology
: 标题: 究竟什么样才算top研究生？
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Nov 18 11:40:10 2012, 美东)
: 我觉得
: （1）要有很强的self-motivation；

w*h2012-11-20 08:11

3 楼

这种的研究生或者研究人员愿意走学术之路的话，
博士后阶段只是一个过渡，
年薪10万，20万在独立之后自然不在话下，
不知你说这样的话什么意思。
更不用说，用钱来衡量一个人的价值么？
煤老板、房地产老板、地沟油老板、黑社会老大显然都比科学家“有价值”。
我过去15年的所见所闻，
还没有发现一例满足条件的研究人员最后还是“极品屌丝”的，
光这bbs上认识的，就不少了。

【在 P******t 的大作中提到】

: 满足这么多牛B条件的人，我真心觉得很牛。觉得这么牛的人，年薪不给２０万，至少
: 也得给１０万吧。
: 泥麻，这样top的研究生毕业后，一样还是３万７一年。就不要jjww什么top 不top了，
: top之后仍然是个极品吊丝，不要开玩笑了，早早转行是正经。
: ------------------
: 发信人: wonderlich (左岸，遁去), 信区: Biology
: 标题: 究竟什么样才算top研究生？
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Nov 18 11:40:10 2012, 美东)
: 我觉得
: （1）要有很强的self-motivation；

d*u2012-11-20 08:11

4 楼

这么强的人一般也很有眼光
很有眼光的人一般不会学生物

【在 w********h 的大作中提到】

: 这种的研究生或者研究人员愿意走学术之路的话，
: 博士后阶段只是一个过渡，
: 年薪10万，20万在独立之后自然不在话下，
: 不知你说这样的话什么意思。
: 更不用说，用钱来衡量一个人的价值么？
: 煤老板、房地产老板、地沟油老板、黑社会老大显然都比科学家“有价值”。
: 我过去15年的所见所闻，
: 还没有发现一例满足条件的研究人员最后还是“极品屌丝”的，
: 光这bbs上认识的，就不少了。

G*e2012-11-20 08:11

5 楼

过去十五年和未来十五年去别相当大啊
您老能预测一下未来十五年的情况吗？

【在 w********h 的大作中提到】

: 这种的研究生或者研究人员愿意走学术之路的话，
: 博士后阶段只是一个过渡，
: 年薪10万，20万在独立之后自然不在话下，
: 不知你说这样的话什么意思。
: 更不用说，用钱来衡量一个人的价值么？
: 煤老板、房地产老板、地沟油老板、黑社会老大显然都比科学家“有价值”。
: 我过去15年的所见所闻，
: 还没有发现一例满足条件的研究人员最后还是“极品屌丝”的，
: 光这bbs上认识的，就不少了。

l*12012-11-20 08:11

6 楼

cow,
老子现在做到教授的位置了，也没有达到下面的7点要求啊！？！？！
（1）要有很强的self-motivation；
（2）要有critical thinking，包括对导师的意见；
（3）要有独立提出问题（决策力）并解决问题的能力（行动力）；
（4）要有其他基本的听说读写能力；
（5）要有基本的科学道德和贯通各科学领域的common sense；
（6）要有一定的科学品味和持之以恒的勇气。
（7）与人融洽相处的能力，
基本上就是一个potentially well influential的科学家。

【在 P******t 的大作中提到】

: 满足这么多牛B条件的人，我真心觉得很牛。觉得这么牛的人，年薪不给２０万，至少
: 也得给１０万吧。
: 泥麻，这样top的研究生毕业后，一样还是３万７一年。就不要jjww什么top 不top了，
: top之后仍然是个极品吊丝，不要开玩笑了，早早转行是正经。
: ------------------
: 发信人: wonderlich (左岸，遁去), 信区: Biology
: 标题: 究竟什么样才算top研究生？
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Nov 18 11:40:10 2012, 美东)
: 我觉得
: （1）要有很强的self-motivation；

G*e2012-11-20 08:11

7 楼

人家讨论的是top研究生
教授不等同于top研究生
你不qualified

【在 l**1 的大作中提到】

: cow,
: 老子现在做到教授的位置了，也没有达到下面的7点要求啊！？！？！
: （1）要有很强的self-motivation；
: （2）要有critical thinking，包括对导师的意见；
: （3）要有独立提出问题（决策力）并解决问题的能力（行动力）；
: （4）要有其他基本的听说读写能力；
: （5）要有基本的科学道德和贯通各科学领域的common sense；
: （6）要有一定的科学品味和持之以恒的勇气。
: （7）与人融洽相处的能力，
: 基本上就是一个potentially well influential的科学家。

C*I2012-11-20 08:11

8 楼

你是说除了第7点都达到了吧？这样例子也见过，但样本很少。

【在 l**1 的大作中提到】

: cow,
: 老子现在做到教授的位置了，也没有达到下面的7点要求啊！？！？！
: （1）要有很强的self-motivation；
: （2）要有critical thinking，包括对导师的意见；
: （3）要有独立提出问题（决策力）并解决问题的能力（行动力）；
: （4）要有其他基本的听说读写能力；
: （5）要有基本的科学道德和贯通各科学领域的common sense；
: （6）要有一定的科学品味和持之以恒的勇气。
: （7）与人融洽相处的能力，
: 基本上就是一个potentially well influential的科学家。

P*12012-11-20 08:11

9 楼

See the first line: self-motivated?? Do you know what that means? That means
"The person wants to do it him/herself". Period. If one wants to do it
himself, then the rest is irrelevant. True scientists are the ones who wants
to do science for intellectual satisfaction. They consider it equivalent to
playing a big game. Ever heard anyone playing computer game and getting
paid? No. Why do they still do it? They enjoy it. If you do science for
money, you already do not belong to this profession, and the rest becomes
irrelevant.I tell my applicants clearly and loud when they apply: you are
not here for money, if you are, don't apply!

s*e2012-11-20 08:11

10 楼

教授一年工资4万块，这样NIH的钱都去搞科研买仪器，你干不？
拿着十万工资对三万工资的人说钱不重要，呵呵

means
wants
to

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: See the first line: self-motivated?? Do you know what that means? That means
: "The person wants to do it him/herself". Period. If one wants to do it
: himself, then the rest is irrelevant. True scientists are the ones who wants
: to do science for intellectual satisfaction. They consider it equivalent to
: playing a big game. Ever heard anyone playing computer game and getting
: paid? No. Why do they still do it? They enjoy it. If you do science for
: money, you already do not belong to this profession, and the rest becomes
: irrelevant.I tell my applicants clearly and loud when they apply: you are
: not here for money, if you are, don't apply!

y*u2012-11-20 08:11

11 楼

哈哈，这个很有意思

【在 G********e 的大作中提到】

: 人家讨论的是top研究生
: 教授不等同于top研究生
: 你不qualified

T*r2012-11-20 08:11

12 楼

這話說的...

【在 d*****u 的大作中提到】

: 这么强的人一般也很有眼光
: 很有眼光的人一般不会学生物

a*22012-11-20 08:11

13 楼

Lol. Not being mean, but this one makes me laugh. THANKFULLY most American
PIs in the bio field still have ethics. Otherwise, if all think this way,
then bio will really become dead.

means
wants
to

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: See the first line: self-motivated?? Do you know what that means? That means
: "The person wants to do it him/herself". Period. If one wants to do it
: himself, then the rest is irrelevant. True scientists are the ones who wants
: to do science for intellectual satisfaction. They consider it equivalent to
: playing a big game. Ever heard anyone playing computer game and getting
: paid? No. Why do they still do it? They enjoy it. If you do science for
: money, you already do not belong to this profession, and the rest becomes
: irrelevant.I tell my applicants clearly and loud when they apply: you are
: not here for money, if you are, don't apply!

l*d2012-11-20 08:11

14 楼

这些个要求对top faculty也是合适的。

【在 l**1 的大作中提到】

: cow,
: 老子现在做到教授的位置了，也没有达到下面的7点要求啊！？！？！
: （1）要有很强的self-motivation；
: （2）要有critical thinking，包括对导师的意见；
: （3）要有独立提出问题（决策力）并解决问题的能力（行动力）；
: （4）要有其他基本的听说读写能力；
: （5）要有基本的科学道德和贯通各科学领域的common sense；
: （6）要有一定的科学品味和持之以恒的勇气。
: （7）与人融洽相处的能力，
: 基本上就是一个potentially well influential的科学家。

P*12012-11-20 08:11

15 楼

Wrong. I was making 30K for a long time, but it didn't bother me at all. if
it did, i would have become a doctor. I was a medical major and reputed
doctor in China, and I am very sure if I took the board test I would have
passed it and started making not just 100k, but 300k long long time ago. But
I chose to be poor for a long time. I also have a few colleagues who gave
up their 300K salary in medicine and went for 30 K salary as a pdf for
several years before they became PIs. Even then they were still only making
30% of what they could've if they stayed on as doctors. That's called
passion and academic aptitude.

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】

: 教授一年工资4万块，这样NIH的钱都去搞科研买仪器，你干不？
: 拿着十万工资对三万工资的人说钱不重要，呵呵
:
: means
: wants
: to

P*12012-11-20 08:11

16 楼

Laugh as much as you want, but it's true that I gave up the opportunity of
making 300K a year and instead made 30k a year for a long time. For 300K a
year, i would be providing service to patients; but for 30K a year, I was
playing a game. I was being paid for playing my game, and I was content. I
could've played computer games but I would not be paid a cent! Of course, if
I thought 30K was unfair, I would simply have chosen to make 300k, but then
I actually have to provide service.

【在 a**********2 的大作中提到】

: Lol. Not being mean, but this one makes me laugh. THANKFULLY most American
: PIs in the bio field still have ethics. Otherwise, if all think this way,
: then bio will really become dead.
:
: means
: wants
: to

a*22012-11-20 08:11

17 楼

I really appreciate the dedication you have for science if what you said is
true. But be realistic, you just can't use the same values or standards for
current generations. People come to this country for a better life, if the
job is not promising, it will be totally understandable that they use bio as
a transition or whatever.

if
But
making

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: Wrong. I was making 30K for a long time, but it didn't bother me at all. if
: it did, i would have become a doctor. I was a medical major and reputed
: doctor in China, and I am very sure if I took the board test I would have
: passed it and started making not just 100k, but 300k long long time ago. But
: I chose to be poor for a long time. I also have a few colleagues who gave
: up their 300K salary in medicine and went for 30 K salary as a pdf for
: several years before they became PIs. Even then they were still only making
: 30% of what they could've if they stayed on as doctors. That's called
: passion and academic aptitude.

s*e2012-11-20 08:11

18 楼

一个人怎么要求自己，和怎么要求别人是两码事情。一个和尚，自己不吃肉不近女人，
是自己的选择；要是要求别人都不吃肉不近女色，人类就灭绝了。自己作为PI，自己拼
命和要求别人拼命，也是两码事情。
本来好好一个科研，被一些人搞得成了苦行僧的行业 --- 不是说做科研不需要艰苦的
努力 --- 而是基本的生活都成了奢望，这个行业距离毁掉也不远了。我自己
可以不在乎钱，难道我不需要养老婆养小孩养父母？还是说做科研的就应该没有老婆没
有小孩没有父母？

if
But
making

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: Wrong. I was making 30K for a long time, but it didn't bother me at all. if
: it did, i would have become a doctor. I was a medical major and reputed
: doctor in China, and I am very sure if I took the board test I would have
: passed it and started making not just 100k, but 300k long long time ago. But
: I chose to be poor for a long time. I also have a few colleagues who gave
: up their 300K salary in medicine and went for 30 K salary as a pdf for
: several years before they became PIs. Even then they were still only making
: 30% of what they could've if they stayed on as doctors. That's called
: passion and academic aptitude.

I*y2012-11-20 08:11

19 楼

the real world is brutal, i hope your dedicatiin is grounded on a sound
awareness and assessment of your situation. anything built on subpar
evaluation or unsound analogous cases would work only if you don't believe
yourself.

means
wants
to

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: See the first line: self-motivated?? Do you know what that means? That means
: "The person wants to do it him/herself". Period. If one wants to do it
: himself, then the rest is irrelevant. True scientists are the ones who wants
: to do science for intellectual satisfaction. They consider it equivalent to
: playing a big game. Ever heard anyone playing computer game and getting
: paid? No. Why do they still do it? They enjoy it. If you do science for
: money, you already do not belong to this profession, and the rest becomes
: irrelevant.I tell my applicants clearly and loud when they apply: you are
: not here for money, if you are, don't apply!

P*12012-11-20 08:11

20 楼

I never force anyone to 拼命. I simply SELECT people who are ready to 拼命
and have the proper talent for the profession. keyword here is SELECT. No
one can BE motivated - not only that's not ethical, it simply does not work.
Another keyword is self-motivated, and in this word, the key element is
self-, i.e., not being forced.

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】

: 一个人怎么要求自己，和怎么要求别人是两码事情。一个和尚，自己不吃肉不近女人，
: 是自己的选择；要是要求别人都不吃肉不近女色，人类就灭绝了。自己作为PI，自己拼
: 命和要求别人拼命，也是两码事情。
: 本来好好一个科研，被一些人搞得成了苦行僧的行业 --- 不是说做科研不需要艰苦的
: 努力 --- 而是基本的生活都成了奢望，这个行业距离毁掉也不远了。我自己
: 可以不在乎钱，难道我不需要养老婆养小孩养父母？还是说做科研的就应该没有老婆没
: 有小孩没有父母？
:
: if
: But

y*u2012-11-20 08:11

21 楼

If you have kids, ask whether s/he wants her father to be a well known MD
doctor, or a post doctor.

work.

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: I never force anyone to 拼命. I simply SELECT people who are ready to 拼命
: and have the proper talent for the profession. keyword here is SELECT. No
: one can BE motivated - not only that's not ethical, it simply does not work.
: Another keyword is self-motivated, and in this word, the key element is
: self-, i.e., not being forced.

a*22012-11-20 08:11

22 楼

Both MD doctors and Phd doctors require dedication. But obviously, those two
have totally different return. Don't use the grand words to glorify science
, we live in a realistic world. If a postdoc can get paid $75k, which is the
comfort line according to a survey published in new york times (or
somewhere else; that article said as long as you make75k, you will live a
comfortable life, more money will not add more happiness, so compared with
that number, postdocs are really just cheap labors, especially when
considering job promise), then I believe bio will attract many talents to
this field.

P*12012-11-20 08:11

23 楼

人各有志。有人就是牛，但人家就不乐意转，就乐意做Post-doc, ３万７一年。总
不能逼人家转行吧。别说一定没有这样的人。我认识的就有。不是每个人都天天想
钱的事。

【在 P******t 的大作中提到】

: 满足这么多牛B条件的人，我真心觉得很牛。觉得这么牛的人，年薪不给２０万，至少
: 也得给１０万吧。
: 泥麻，这样top的研究生毕业后，一样还是３万７一年。就不要jjww什么top 不top了，
: top之后仍然是个极品吊丝，不要开玩笑了，早早转行是正经。
: ------------------
: 发信人: wonderlich (左岸，遁去), 信区: Biology
: 标题: 究竟什么样才算top研究生？
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Nov 18 11:40:10 2012, 美东)
: 我觉得
: （1）要有很强的self-motivation；

P*12012-11-20 08:11

24 楼

说来说去，这位的所谓眼光，还是局限在赚钱的眼光。

【在 d*****u 的大作中提到】

: 这么强的人一般也很有眼光
: 很有眼光的人一般不会学生物

P*12012-11-20 08:11

25 楼

What you said is true. There are fewer (but not none) people in the young
generation who are interested in science. That is why I as a PI have to be
really careful when I select them. For one thing I'm not the kind of people
who force others to work hard, on the other hand I do not want to be used as
a step stone - the only choice then is to keep my eyes wide open when I
accept someone into the lab.

is
for
as

【在 a**********2 的大作中提到】

: I really appreciate the dedication you have for science if what you said is
: true. But be realistic, you just can't use the same values or standards for
: current generations. People come to this country for a better life, if the
: job is not promising, it will be totally understandable that they use bio as
: a transition or whatever.
:
: if
: But
: making

a*22012-11-20 08:11

26 楼

Everyone does things for own benefit. Just hope you tell your student the
truth about the job market of bio field. Don't act like some PIs, just lie
to their students and give many false promises. Give students or postdocs
the truth, let them make the decision for their future.

people
as

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: What you said is true. There are fewer (but not none) people in the young
: generation who are interested in science. That is why I as a PI have to be
: really careful when I select them. For one thing I'm not the kind of people
: who force others to work hard, on the other hand I do not want to be used as
: a step stone - the only choice then is to keep my eyes wide open when I
: accept someone into the lab.
:
: is
: for
: as

s*r2012-11-20 08:11

27 楼

万般皆下品，唯有science高

说来说去，这位的所谓眼光，还是局限在赚钱的眼光。

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: 说来说去，这位的所谓眼光，还是局限在赚钱的眼光。

s*e2012-11-20 08:11

28 楼

我觉得生活是很现实的，说到钱的问题：比如说，也许你的学生或者postdoc开始单身
的时候对钱也不在乎，但是后来有了家有了小孩，钱就是一个超级头疼的问题，毕竟
science不能给小孩奶粉。
从开始的时候就以一个宽容的心态或者现实的心态考虑到别人的需要，别人也会更加专
注的专心做science。如果和一个学生或者薄厚的基础就是一些不切实际的理想或者期
待，认为别人就应该100%做science,不应该考虑钱，不应该考虑一些利益的东西，后来
的结果不会太好。

people
as

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: What you said is true. There are fewer (but not none) people in the young
: generation who are interested in science. That is why I as a PI have to be
: really careful when I select them. For one thing I'm not the kind of people
: who force others to work hard, on the other hand I do not want to be used as
: a step stone - the only choice then is to keep my eyes wide open when I
: accept someone into the lab.
:
: is
: for
: as

n*k2012-11-20 08:11

29 楼

奇怪，来这个版的应该都是生物phd or pd吧，没兴趣，信仰做啥子生物。做了生物抱
怨钱少，这不是入行以前公认的么。。。。。。。有经济压力就不该读生物啊，搞金融
，国内早些年在stock market就是捡钱

n*k2012-11-20 08:11

30 楼

基本同意，不过我觉得pi可以尽量给高一点的工资。像我老板，给的都是top line，其
实不亏的,大家每天干12个小时，为了老板也为了自己，养3个打酱油的不如养2个能出
活的。老人走的前几天还在努力干活，人的心里都有把尺，新人的project很多都是快
走的老人给develop出来的。老板的工作基本就是要data写grant去social，昨天过来聊
天算账，说今年拿了10M，他也很appreciate学生给他的data。

means
wants
to

【在 P*******1 的大作中提到】

: See the first line: self-motivated?? Do you know what that means? That means
: "The person wants to do it him/herself". Period. If one wants to do it
: himself, then the rest is irrelevant. True scientists are the ones who wants
: to do science for intellectual satisfaction. They consider it equivalent to
: playing a big game. Ever heard anyone playing computer game and getting
: paid? No. Why do they still do it? They enjoy it. If you do science for
: money, you already do not belong to this profession, and the rest becomes
: irrelevant.I tell my applicants clearly and loud when they apply: you are
: not here for money, if you are, don't apply!

t*a2012-11-20 08:11

31 楼

顶这个。老农你可能是个很好的scientist，你却未必是个合格的PI和manager。你已经
是PI了，啥都有了，可你的PhD和postdoc可能还没成家，拿着微不足道的薪水，不知道
路在何方。凭啥用你对你自己的要求去要求他们呢？况且，做science靠的是兴趣和自
由，你的PhD和postdoc有自由么？你是不是把你自己的科研兴趣和方向强加在他们的头
上，不给或者很少给他们选择的自由？单纯一点的人觉得你不过是一心科研，现实一些
的人觉得你不过在打着科研的幌子欺骗利用他们，为的是实现你自己的野心。

【在 s**********e 的大作中提到】

: 一个人怎么要求自己，和怎么要求别人是两码事情。一个和尚，自己不吃肉不近女人，
: 是自己的选择；要是要求别人都不吃肉不近女色，人类就灭绝了。自己作为PI，自己拼
: 命和要求别人拼命，也是两码事情。
: 本来好好一个科研，被一些人搞得成了苦行僧的行业 --- 不是说做科研不需要艰苦的
: 努力 --- 而是基本的生活都成了奢望，这个行业距离毁掉也不远了。我自己
: 可以不在乎钱，难道我不需要养老婆养小孩养父母？还是说做科研的就应该没有老婆没
: 有小孩没有父母？
:
: if
: But