折叠丝路 × gmp丨数字时代，建筑师更要保持对设计工作的掌控

文化

2023-08-02 00:08

在西安“城市封面”学术年第一期主题沙龙，我们邀请到了四位国际知名事务所的建筑师，马达思班创始合伙人/设计总监马清运、MAD创始人/合伙人马岩松、gmp合伙人 Stephan Rewolle、AECOM执行总监/景观部主管 Lee Parks，一起探讨“建筑群像——信息时代下的城市与建筑”，将他们对于文化建筑集群的发展模式和实践经验，与丝路文化的影响力共同融入到西安的城市发展中。

新时代下，当我们思考折叠「丝绸之路」，重现历史信息、聚焦大师精神，从城市发展中的文化建筑集群与城市公共空间出发，通过建筑产业的发展，塑造区域文化品牌，提升城市软实力。这里的折叠，并非物理的折叠，而是时空的折叠。作为时空折叠语境下的产物，建筑、景观、城市在不同尺度下服务于新的时代。

ArchiDogs 建道筑格，邀请您和我们一起，从各位具有国际化背景的建筑师和景观设计师的视角，打开理解建筑与城市的“答卷”。

施特凡·瑞沃勒（Stephan Rewolle）于2021年成为gmp·冯·格康，玛格及合伙人建筑师事务所合伙人，负责gmp北京办公室的工作。瑞沃勒曾就读于德国布伦瑞克工业大学、奥地利格拉茨工业大学及哥本哈根的丹麦皇家艺术学院。他在gmp主持设计了许多知名项目，其中包括北京中国国家博物馆、北京丰台火车站、亚洲金融大厦暨亚投行总部、上海外滩SOHO、北京CHAO酒店、成都东安湖体育公园、天津国家会展中心、天津滨海文化中心等。

「折叠丝路」X gmp / Stephan Rewolle

作为“一带一路”国际化大都市，当代西安正迎来崭新的发展阶段，不断拓展向全球开放的广度和深度。创造历史传承与创新发展兼容并蓄的多层次叙事，成为这座城市吸引全球英才汇聚的强力磁场。

As an international metropolis of the Belt and Road Initiative, contemporary Xi’an is experiencing a new stage of development, continuing to broaden and deepen her state of openness to the world. It helps to attract global talents by creating a multi-layered narrative which integrates the rich history of this city with her innovative development.

您的职业建筑生涯从欧洲到中国，刚好“走”了一遍丝绸之路。是什么样的因缘际会，使您来到中国实践？中国有哪些吸引您的地方？

Your architectural career and experience from Europe to China, from a geographical perspective, are just like following the Silk Road path. What motivated you to come to China to practice? What attracted you to China?

我很多年前（2004年）就来中国工作了。当时gmp的北京办公室已经发展得不错，完成了gmp在中国的第一批项目，如北京的德国使馆学校。当时，是我们这些优秀的同事使gmp在北京稳健成长。

I came to China many years ago (2004). At that time, the gmp office I worked for already had some good experiences in Beijing. We did our first projects there, like the German school and some other projects. At that time, it was very good colleagues, and friends of mine, who built up the Beijing office.

几年之后，总部问我是否想担任北京办公室的负责人。这对我来说很有吸引力，因为北京当时的发展势头非常强劲，我被北京的敢于变化的精神和发展活力所吸引。我之前在柏林生活，柏林也是在过去三十年中成长为很大的一座城市。

And after some years, they asked me if I would like to take over. This was attractive to me because Beijing at that time was already developing quite strongly. There was a great spirit of change, a lot of energy and this is something that attracts me personally. I've been living in Berlin before. Berlin is, as you may know, also a city that has experienced big changes over the last 30 years.

Stephan Rewolle 主持设计项目：世界大学生运动会新比赛场馆东安湖体育公园 ©CreatAR Images

在中国我和北京办公室的中国同事们一起工作了很长时间。与中国建筑师同行们的合作也是让我留在中国的另一大原因。多年来，我们建立了深厚的友谊，对我来说是很有意义的。

In China I work a lot together with the Chinese colleagues at the Beijing office. That’s another big part of what keeps me here in China: the cooperation with Chinese architects and colleagues. Over the years, we have a lot of friendships developed. I think it's quite rewarding.

Stephan Rewolle 在北京办公室与同事在一起 ©Wang Youmin

作为来中国工作的德国人，我的德国教育、文化背景与中国文化产生有趣结合，有时也会部分地与中国文化产生冲突，这常常会催生令人意想不到的解决方案和新鲜想法。我喜欢这种文化的融合，因为我们既有相通之处，也有不同之处。这种摩擦有助于产生新鲜创意。我在这里的工作与个人生活都很丰富。

So it's interesting as a German coming to China with my education and cultural background and this then mixes or is partly confronted with the Chinese culture, which often leads to surprising solutions and very fresh ideas. I like this hybrid of culture, because there are things we share, but there are also things where we are different. I think this kind of friction often generates new ways to come up with new ideas. So I have a very rich life here personally, but also with my job.

Stephan Rewolle 主持设计项目：北京三里屯CHAO酒店 ©Christian Gahl

北京和西安都是历史悠久的古都。您如何理解两座城市的异同？

Speaking of Beijing, it has a rich historic heritage, similar to Xi’an. Both cities served as capitals in ancient China. How do you compare Xi’an to Beijing, in terms of similarities and differences?

它们都有作为首都的历史。西安在过去很多朝代都是首都，历史悠久。在这两座城市中，能感受到都城独有的气魄。对一个城市来说，多维度的历史是一种很重要的特质。你可以感觉到这个城市是由不同时期产生的不同层次所塑造的。

Yes, they share a similar history as capitals, Xi’an has been a capital for a long time for many dynasties in the past. So I think that's the spirit you feel in both cities. What is very enriching for a city and also for me is a particular quality generated, namely by the many layers of history embedded in the city. You can feel different times creating different layers shaping the city-skyline.

Stephan Rewolle 主持设计项目：中国国家博物馆改扩建 ©Christian Gahl

西安现今面临一个挑战，即如何再次吸引全世界的人才。你认为西安应如何吸引国际人才？

How to attract talent once again from around the world to Xi’an? What should Xi’an do to attract more global talent?

我认为西安有很好的机会来发掘自己的特质、展现属于自己的文化叙事。一个城市所具有的独特气韵和文化背景对于吸引国际人才来说真的很重要。西安拥有深厚的历史文化遗产，关键在于如何展示、宣传西安的文化叙事，使其可见。

I think Xian has a good chance to further create its own character, its own storytelling. It’s really important if we talk about how to attract international talent from outside, that peaple feel this city has a specific flavor and multilayered cultural background. I think Xian provides a lot. It’s just about presenting and promoting it, making it visible.

"The Science City of the Silk Road" was first established in the Xi'an Hi-Tech Zone in 2021, and it is now taking shape. In the process of constructing this science hub, where the economic development is driven by high-tech industries, it is equally important to build the livability and soft power of the city.

在当前这个古今交汇的时空语境下，从建筑师的视角出发，如何在城市建设中平衡历史遗产保护与科技发展？

As an architect, in your opinion, how do we balance the historical heritage and technological advancement in the process of urban development in Xi’an?

西安悠久的历史绝对是宝贵的资产，应该好好利用。对于像高新区这样的新城开发来说，传承历史与现代化、高科技的发展是可以结合的。这种结合对于吸引外来人才也同样重要。当外来人才被引进时，他们期望的不仅仅是一份有前途的工作，同时也希望过上有质量的生活，尤其是他们的家人可能随着一起迁居落户。这就需要展现城市独特的文化魅力，为他们提供享受城市生活、城市的历史，认识本土居民的可能性。

I think it's definitely an asset. Xi'an has this great history, and it should really make use of it. I see no problem to combine tradition with modern developments and high tech. If you want to attract people from the outside, this mix is especially atractive. If people move to a place like Xi’an, they expect not only to have a good job, but also want to experience a good life here with their families who will probably join them. It means culture, a possibility to enjoy the city, its history, and the people.

同时，西安也需要建设成为现代化的城市。中国本土和国外都有这样的城市。在我的家乡欧洲，像哥本哈根和巴黎等城市近年来愈发吸引外来人才，因为当地的基础设施得以大力发展。城市变得更为生态友好，交通方式转为自行车或步行为主，或者公共交通得到发展。城市的整体氛围变得更加开放、友好，所以人们愿意使用城市的公共空间。这一点很重要。

At the same time, it also means that Xi’an should provide, or work on to be a modern city. There are good examples in and outside China. For example, in Europe, there are cities like Copenhagen or Paris that really get increasingly attractive to people because they improved immensely, in terms of infrastructure. They became greener, switching the transportation mode to bicycling or pedestrian traffic, or they really improve their public transportation systems. With this, the whole environment of the city becomes much more friendly and liveable, so people like to be in the public spaces and use the city. I think this is quite crucial.

gmp设计作品：西安丝路国际会议中心 ©CreatAR Images

谈到城市的吸引力，在您看来，以科技发展为导向的高新区在发展中所需要的核心元素是什么？

Speaking of attractive elements, in your opinion, what's the key element that a technology-oriented high-tech district needs in its development?

我会主要考虑关于生活品质的城市发展元素。对人们来说，除了工作，可以在业余时间做很多事：从居民区可以很快接触到大自然，或者去休闲娱乐场所，与人群接触，或者享受音乐会、表演等等任何种类的文化消费。城市的核心元素不只有一个，应当是所有这些有关生活品质的元素的综合，才能打造出一个富有内涵的、成功的城市。

It’s very much about life quality. This means for the people, beside their work, they have possibilities to do something in their spare time, that they have short ways in their neighborhoods to get into nature or to get somewhere where they can be entertained, or meet people, somewhere where they can enjoy and consume culture or concerts, performances, any kinds of culture you can think of. It’s not the only one thing that is important. It's always the composition and the mix of all these ingredients for being a rich and successful city.

gmp设计作品：外滩soho ©Christian Gahl

对于城市发展来说，重要的是多种因素的综合，所以我没法指出一个核心元素。很多中国城市近年来发展得很好，比如上海。上海的基础设施建设发展很快，在黄浦江沿岸新建设了很多为市民提供的滨水空间。像这样的新景点可以吸引人们搬来这座城市。

So it's hard for me to point out one specific thing, it's rather the combination of many factors. I know many cities in China which have improved recently, like Shanghai. They really worked a lot on upgrade their infrastructure. Especially how the shoreline of the Huangpu River was re-vitalized, turning backsides into frontsides, smart development that created a whole new atraction for Shanghai.

gmp设计作品：外滩soho ©Christian Gahl

gmp设计作品：天津滨海文化中心长廊 ©Christian Gahl

西安高新区丝路科学城的建设正如火如荼地展开。如果有机会参与到高新区的城市建设中，您会如何做

The High-Tech Zone is now taking shape. If you had a chance to participate in its urban development, what would you like to do? Do you have any suggestions?

作为一位外国建筑师，我首先会研究西安的历史、当地文化，当地居民的生活习惯，尝试挖掘这座城市的特质：它有什么独特气韵？然后，我会把这些发现转化到建筑设计中，探索能够扎根于西安的创作，为这座城市的高新区量身打造它所需要的建筑。

As a foreign architect, I would first do research about Xi’an’s history, the culture here, the habits of the people, and also about the special characters of this city. Which flavor does it have? Then I would try to transport it into architecture and try to do something which can only be here, in Xi’an, and not somewhere else. So it's about developing something that is custom-made for this location, for the high-tech zone in this city.

本期沙龙的主题为“折叠丝路”，其中"折叠 "指代的是时间维度上的层叠，而不是物理意义上的空间重合。将这个概念延伸到建筑创作领域，我们会注意到，当代中国建筑师常常面临着如何在当代传承并运用中国传统建筑文化的问题。作为在中国进行设计实践的国际事务所，gmp在创作当代建筑的过程中，怎样向中国本土文化致意？

The theme of this forum is “Folding the Silk Road”. Here, “folding” refers to a dimension that is temporal, but not physical. Extending this idea of folding to architecture, we may notice that Chinese architects nowadays face the problem of preserving traditional architectural heritage in the contemporary era. As a German architecture office practicing in China, how does gmp pay homage to Chinese architectural heritage while creating contemporary design?

我们如何在传承中国传统建筑遗产的同时，进行当代的建筑创作？

In your opinion, how can we represent Chinese architectural heritage in a contemporary way?

作为在中国实践的德国设计公司，我们在输出工作方式的同时，也在尝试与中国文化融合，从中也学到了很多。多年来，我们一直在研究如何将中国的传统建筑语言进行现代化的转译，这是也许多中国建筑师在试图解决的议题。在我们观察中国传统建筑时，试图了解空间是如何被定义和使用的，以及光或材料这样的元素如何塑造建筑。

First of all, as a German office in China, we do not only transport or export our way to do architecture to China, but we also get inspired by Chinese culture, from which we learn a lot. For many years we have been part of the research about how to transform Chinese building culture tradition into modernity. This is a big question that many Chinese architects also have. When we look at traditional Chinese architecture, we always try to understand how space is used and thought, and how elements like light or material have been used to shape architecture at that time.

虽然gmp的建筑设计致力于现代、当代，但我们同样也会考虑中国传统的空间使用方式。比如，中国传统空间有一种含蓄的、间接的文化，人在空间中的运动会有移步换景、曲径通幽的体验。这些都是我们所学习的东西。我们会用现代和当代的建筑语言，以一种含蓄的方式向传统致敬。我们关注的不是直接模仿传统，更多的是理解传统的本质，并将其转化为现代的东西。

So our architecture is modern and contemporary, but it also refers to tradition, though not in a too obvious way. It's not about copying. It's more about understanding the essence and transforming it into something modern.

Rewolle 主持设计项目：亚洲金融大厦暨亚投行总部 ©CreatAR Images

Stephan Rewolle 主持设计项目：亚洲金融大厦暨亚投行总部 ©CreatAR Images

说到现代设计与中式传统的结合，您曾参与过中国国家博物馆的扩建改造项目，可以谈一谈在该项目中使用的设计手法吗？

Considering the combination of modern design and Chinese tradition, you’ve participated in the expansion of the National Museum of China. Could you please tell us more about the design language and techniques you used in the project?

国家博物馆的扩建项目大约是2004年开始的，已经过去很久了。当时，我们致力于将两条设计思路结合：第一，我们希望做与中国传统有关的设计，毕竟这是中国的国家博物馆，所处的地点也就是天安门地区有极其重要的意义；第二，我们希望设计一个永不过时的博物馆，有一定国际化的标准。在创作过程中，我们学习中国的历史与建筑传统，将从传统中提炼出的一些规则或者元素运用到设计中，并将其进行抽象与现代的转译。

The National Museum project was started around 2004, which is already quite some time ago. At that time there were two things that we tried to bring together. One was that we should and wanted to relate to the tradition of China. It's a Chinese National Museum. We wanted to relate to the context which is very important in that area. At the same time the museum should also be timeless, and it should have a certain international standard. We studied Chinese building tradition and history, and then we applied some rule sets or some elements of this tradition to the design, but we transformed it into a more abstract, modern way without just copying it.

有趣的是，当问到访过国博的观众对建筑空间的印象如何时，有些中国观众会感觉这是中国的建筑，因为他们感受到一些熟悉的中国式元素；而一些国际友人则认为这是一座国际化的博物馆。每个人都能从国博的空间中感知到自己熟悉的内容。所以，做建筑设计可以不用把风格做得太确定，而是给使用者留下自主感受与解读的空间。

The interesting thing is that, till nowadays, you ask people who have visited the National Museum about their impression of the space. Chinese visitors feel that it's Chinese, recognizing elements that they are familiar with just by feeling. At the same time, when you ask international guests, they also think it's an international museum. Everyone interprets what they see in it themselves. So I think it is always good in architecture to not to determine but gives space to people to put in their own feeling and their own interpretation.

是否可以说，国家博物馆的改扩建设计是中国文化元素与国际视野的平衡？

So, the National Museum is a balance of historical Chinese elements and the international vision.

没错。这个设计非常尊重中国传统，同时某种意义上是永不过时的。在设计过程中，还有一个要求，就是空间安排必须灵活、可调整，因为博物馆会有很多临时的交流展。

Exactly. It respects the Chinese tradition very much, while being timeless in a way. There is also a requirement that it has to be flexible, because there will be a lot of exchange exhibitions.

国家博物馆扩建是一个极具挑战性，也极富趣味性的项目。馆藏的展品大多都很小，有很多瓷器、青铜器、玉器。如何将观众从具有宏大尺度的天安门广场过渡到欣赏小展品的室内空间？这种转换不能太突兀。所以在设计时，我们需要考虑逐步地将观众引导至展品前。观众沿着被精心设定的参观流线，经过的空间逐渐贴合人体尺度，当他们最终看到艺术品时，会与其一同置身于更亲密的空间中。

One challenge was that most exhibition pieces in the National Museum are not so big: there are a lot of ceramics, bronze, jade objects and so on. So how to bring visitors from a very large scale surrounding like Tiananmen Square to the small objects? This cannot happen too sudden. A very important idea of the museum is to bring the visitor step by step to the art piece. The pathways of visitors were choreographed in a way that they go through spaces that become more and more human scale. And when they see the art piece itself, they are in much more intimate surroundings together with the art piece. So it was a very challenging, but also a very interesting thing to solve on that museum.

科技发展日新月异，近年来数字虚拟、人工智能等高新科技如雨后春笋般涌进大众市场。新技术的应用为建筑师提供了更便利的创作工具，同时也对建筑师自身对设计的掌控能力提出更高要求。

The technological revolution has brought about new concepts like VR and AIGC, which have become mainstream in recent years. While these new technologies provide architects with more convenient tools, they also require that architects have a higher degree of control over their design.

建筑和设计领域应该如何与数字虚拟、人工智能这些新技术结合吗？

How do we integrate cutting-edge technologies, such as VR and AIGC into architecture and design? Have you tried any of these technologies in your previous projects?

作为建筑师，我们工作已经发生了巨大的变化。当我在大学里学建筑时，仍然用笔和纸做设计。从手绘开始，我经历了建筑界的数字化转型。去年人工智能领域的发展是相当关键的，我们突然有生成图像的新工具。这些数字化工具使建筑界发生了巨大变化。

My job as architect has changed tremendously. When I started in the university, we still worked with pen and paper. I started from there and went through the whole digital transformation. Last year, the development in the AI sector was quite crucial. So suddenly there are very new possibilities to generate images. All these digital tools are a big help. They have transformed the architectural world a lot.

但问题的关键在于对设计的控制力。这些新软件和人工智能领域的发展，如Midjourney和 Stable Diffusion等AI图像技术，为我们与客户交流设计提供了新的可能。但重要的是，建筑师要保持对设计工作的掌控。这也是我们必须不断努力的事情。

But like always, the art is how to stay in charge or to stay in control. All these new software and the development inside the AI sector, such as Midjourney or Stable Diffusion, give us new possibilities to communicate our architecture to the clients, but it's important that you stay in control of what you're doing. This is also something you constantly have to work on.

「折叠丝路」X gmp / Stephan Rewolle

西安既是十三朝古都，也是新时代“一带一路”开放之都。在追求高新科技驱动的“硬核”发展的同时，讲好中国文化与国际视野兼容并蓄的西安故事，可以使西安成为吸引国家化多元群体来华创新发展的强力磁场。

Once the capital of thirteen ancient Chinese dynasties, Xi’an is now an open metropolis of the Belt and Road Initiative. This time-honored city could become a powerful magnet attracting global talents, pursuing high-tech development while creating a unique narrative of Chinese culture integrated with global perspectives.

发文编辑｜Aaron

审核编辑 | Miranda

采访/撰写 | Ming、可达、Jiqing / Yutong